Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware update

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Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware update

Postby Tacx Video Production » Fri Jan 07, 2011 6:33 pm

The Bushido firmware update that should link your Ant+ head unit to the Ant+ powermeter is ready for testing.

We need anyone with a wireless

SRM
Powertap
Quark

Tacx feel confident that the SRM & Powertap is working fine but their quark keeps going flat so this one is a bit of a guess, but it should work :wink:

But it sounds like we are close to having the holy grail of trainer accuracy!

If you want to test this out email me ASAP
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby kostyap » Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:07 am

Phil wrote:...But it sounds like we are close to having the holy grail of trainer accuracy!...


Yeah, right. It is not TACX that is close to that "holy grail" but SRM, SARIS and QUARQ. You'll be close when you put your own torque sensor on resistance unit. Ever checked the price of PT (the cheapest of powermeters) lately? What is the percentage of your customers that own one?
Roll up your sleeves and put some strain gauges on your equipment, then you will not need external powermeters :wink:
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby Tacx Video Production » Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:52 am

kostyap wrote:
Phil wrote:...But it sounds like we are close to having the holy grail of trainer accuracy!...


Yeah, right. It is not TACX that is close to that "holy grail" but SRM, SARIS and QUARQ. You'll be close when you put your own torque sensor on resistance unit. Ever checked the price of PT (the cheapest of powermeters) lately? What is the percentage of your customers that own one?
Roll up your sleeves and put some strain gauges on your equipment, then you will not need external powermeters :wink:


Yes for sure the % of VR trainer customers that are even racing is quite low, so we are down at low numbers here for sure. This number will rise when the Vortex starts to roll out. But obviously anyone that owns a power meter will tell you that there will always be a difference between the various power meters. So if you own one & there are 1000s of riders out there with one, then for sure the best most accurate number (for you) is the one you train with all the time. Using the same power meter all the time is obviously the best way to train. For LT training you can pre set a power & know that its going to be spot on right for you, that the 300watts you did out on the road is the same 300watts on the trainer. You can not do this on say a Computrainer as there will always be a difference, if only from all the drive chain friction losses. Power from the crank is going to be higher then say power from the Hub.

Its not just that The Schleck Brothers actually requested this for their Bushidos & I would say every pro team coach we have met, its more a tool for these guys :wink:
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby mcorn » Sat Jan 08, 2011 4:54 pm

kostyap wrote:Roll up your sleeves and put some strain gauges on your equipment, then you will not need external powermeters :wink:


I didn't know if you were being a bit light-hearted, but this would add very substantial costs to the machine, probably at least $500, maybe $1,000.
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I own two Quark Cinqo's but

Postby crewman » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:15 pm

I would be happy to test the Quark Cinqo's as I have two of them.

But as of yet I do not have a Bushido. Almost bought one before I bought the Fortius. I for one would really like to see this integration. The handle bar on my bike when I ride my Fortius looks like the cockpit of an airplane with all my computers.
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Postby ms6073 » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:02 pm

Phil,

E-mail has been sent. Just ordered a Bushido having been a long time Fortius user. Assuming my source has the item in stock, I expect to have it in hand by the weekend, and since I we have wireless SRMs on 3-bikes, I would also be interested in particpating.

Additionally, for me the real holy grail would be for the developers to code TTS so that it took ANT+ wireless signals read via the USB ANT+ interface plugged into the computer thus using powermeter wattage to control trainer resistance for all the trainers and not just Bushido.
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Re: I own two Quark Cinqo's but

Postby Tacx Video Production » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:25 pm

crewman wrote: I for one would really like to see this integration. The handle bar on my bike when I ride my Fortius looks like the cockpit of an airplane with all my computers.


The idea is to pull the data from the sensor & not to control the Bushido from the bike computer. Tacx cant program the actual displays like the Garmin SRM etc we would need to somehow persuade these companys to do this like they did with the power meters. Im not sure yet if there would be a demand or motive for them to do that as just now there is just Tacx. But what you could probably do is put the head unit on a nearby table or something & clear some space on the bars for something more useful like hands. The Watts & Cadence info should be coming off the actual power meter rather then the trainer so there would be no need to see the same data 2x (or 3 if you have it also up on the PC).

Where I see the major benefit of this is with Ergotraining, you will be able to really fine tune your LT intervals! But this is the kind of thing that needs to be tested.
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Postby ms6073 » Tue Jan 18, 2011 8:19 pm

So now that I also count myself among the Bushido user group, any updates on how long it will take to complete functional/regression testing before we see the firmware update? I also note that the user guide that came with the head unit for my 2011 Bushido makes mention of pairing with other ANT+ sensors and aludes that if paired with an ANT+ powermeter, it would derive power, speed, and cadence data from that device as well. So can we take that to mean that in the case of an SRM, or Powertap hub, Bushido will read power and cadence from the SRM or PT hub but we will also have to pair with an ANT+ speed sensor to get speed?
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Postby Dedgi » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:40 pm

Any update on this testing? The original post by Phil indicated that it was ready for testing but I have not heard anything back for while.
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby robp » Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:15 pm

kostyap wrote:
Phil wrote:...But it sounds like we are close to having the holy grail of trainer accuracy!...


Yeah, right. It is not TACX that is close to that "holy grail" but SRM, SARIS and QUARQ. You'll be close when you put your own torque sensor on resistance unit. Ever checked the price of PT (the cheapest of powermeters) lately? What is the percentage of your customers that own one?
Roll up your sleeves and put some strain gauges on your equipment, then you will not need external powermeters :wink:


If you're serious about training with power then you buy a Powertap or Quarq or SRM and use it all the time, not just on the trainer.

I'd also like to see this implemented across to TTS. To my logical but non-programming brain, it seems that this would be pretty straightforward. Golden Cheetah already does basically the same thing, taking realtime ANT+ signals to give you a on-screen live read-out. It seems a small step from that to controlling the resistance level on the fly in Catalyst.

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Postby mowa » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:22 pm

Phil wrote:http://www.tacxbushido.com/en_extrainfo_koppeling.html Its been ready for a while. :wink:


What are the latest firmware versions for Bushido? Mine has 0.5.4 for the computer, and 0.3.008 for the brake, and TTS claims it's the latest ones, but it doesn't have the mentioned settings/ext. sensor in the menu...
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby kostyap » Sun May 01, 2011 12:26 am

robp wrote:...Golden Cheetah already does basically the same thing, taking realtime ANT+ signals to give you a on-screen live read-out. It seems a small step from that to controlling the resistance level on the fly in Catalyst.


Actually ANT+ power transmission from at least powertap has pretty large time lag. You could probably use it to control average resistance but forget about any dynamics. I tried it and it feels awful.
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby Tacx Video Production » Sun May 01, 2011 9:33 am

kostyap wrote:
robp wrote:...Golden Cheetah already does basically the same thing, taking realtime ANT+ signals to give you a on-screen live read-out. It seems a small step from that to controlling the resistance level on the fly in Catalyst.


Actually ANT+ power transmission from at least powertap has pretty large time lag. You could probably use it to control average resistance but forget about any dynamics. I tried it and it feels awful.


I used to be a real fan of instant feedback when I used to race & train with various power meters some years ago. I remember not being all that happy when Powertap changed to the Yellow computer which added a little lag & smoothing to the display of the wattage. I think they then made it so you could turn it off or even increase the smoothing but that could be my fuzzy memory. I dont race anymore & also do not have a power meter (I like to ride with nothing but the scenery nowdays) so I have no idea how this firmware will work. All I wanted was for a way to be sure that all the watts are the same.
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Postby Mad Mr H » Sun May 01, 2011 9:19 pm

Hi,

Will this work with power2max spider?

It is Ant+

I am about to order either Quark or power2max spider.

www.power2max.de if that help you check with them.

Im happy to beta test but would like to buy the right item first.

Thank you.
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby kostyap » Sun May 01, 2011 9:57 pm

Phil wrote:I used to be a real fan of instant feedback when I used to race & train with various power meters some years ago. I remember not being all that happy when Powertap changed to the Yellow computer which added a little lag & smoothing to the display of the wattage.


Lag is totally fine when all you want is to look at your wattage and having Bushido pick-up power readings from a "recognized" powermeter is well worth it. My reply was to the robp idea that one could use ANT+ transmissions to control resistance of trainer. I tried it and I can assure you that feedback based on ANT+ sucks big time.
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Postby ms6073 » Mon May 02, 2011 9:30 pm

mowa wrote:What are the latest firmware versions for Bushido? Mine has 0.5.4 for the computer, and 0.3.008 for the brake

According to http://tacx.com/en/service/software-updates/bushido.dot, 5.4 & 3.7 are the latest updates. :(

Phil wrote:http://www.tacxbushido.com/en_extrainfo_koppeling.html Its been ready for a while. :wink:

What has been ready for a while? That page cannot be current as I also have the latest firmware, yet my handlebar controller does not offer those menu choices either. :?:
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby robp » Mon May 09, 2011 4:39 pm

kostyap wrote:
Phil wrote:I used to be a real fan of instant feedback when I used to race & train with various power meters some years ago. I remember not being all that happy when Powertap changed to the Yellow computer which added a little lag & smoothing to the display of the wattage.


Lag is totally fine when all you want is to look at your wattage and having Bushido pick-up power readings from a "recognized" powermeter is well worth it. My reply was to the robp idea that one could use ANT+ transmissions to control resistance of trainer. I tried it and I can assure you that feedback based on ANT+ sucks big time.


So, is really what we're talking about here just putting the power numbers up on the Bushido screen rather than the PCV or Garmin screen which you already have on the bike anyway? I can't believe that is what the Schleck brothers et al have been asking for.

On the Wattage list, Phil said:
If all goes well when you program your 2 x 20minutes of 350watts (are
you guys still doing those horrible things?) its going to be spot on
350watts or at least the same 350watts you have out on the road.
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby kostyap » Mon May 09, 2011 7:39 pm

robp wrote:
kostyap wrote:
Phil wrote:I used to be a real fan of instant feedback when I used to race & train with various power meters some years ago. I remember not being all that happy when Powertap changed to the Yellow computer which added a little lag & smoothing to the display of the wattage.


Lag is totally fine when all you want is to look at your wattage and having Bushido pick-up power readings from a "recognized" powermeter is well worth it. My reply was to the robp idea that one could use ANT+ transmissions to control resistance of trainer. I tried it and I can assure you that feedback based on ANT+ sucks big time.


So, is really what we're talking about here just putting the power numbers up on the Bushido screen rather than the PCV or Garmin screen which you already have on the bike anyway? I can't believe that is what the Schleck brothers et al have been asking for.

On the Wattage list, Phil said:
If all goes well when you program your 2 x 20minutes of 350watts (are
you guys still doing those horrible things?) its going to be spot on
350watts or at least the same 350watts you have out on the road.


I have no idea in about TACX's plans in regards to signal from PowerMeter. Even though using it as an instant feedback sucks the signal can still be used to do internal calibration based on sliding averade for example.
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby ms6073 » Mon May 09, 2011 9:33 pm

robp wrote:So, is really what we're talking about here just putting the power numbers up on the Bushido screen rather than the PCV or Garmin screen which you already have on the bike anyway?


While this may be way off base, my understanding is that this firmware update would; (A) Allow the Bushido handlebar controller to pair with ANT+ Powermeters such as Powertap, Quarq, and SRM; and (B) the power output from the paired powermeter would not only be displayed on the handlebar controller, it would also be the power output upon which motorbrake resistance is based during training.
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Re: Testers wanted for Ant+ wireless power meter firmware up

Postby mcorn » Mon May 09, 2011 9:43 pm

ms6073 wrote:the power output from the paired powermeter would not only be displayed on the handlebar controller, it would also be the power output upon which motorbrake resistance is based during training.


My understanding from Kostyap's observation is this will likely provide very poor performance as there is too much time lag in the ANT+ protocol to use this as a rapid control system.
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