Virtual speed

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MTB
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Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:57 pm

Re: Virtual speed

Post by MTB » Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:36 pm

I changed over to 4.18.5 and tested today the NEO again after riding for 3 weeks to my full satisfaction on the old Fortius.
There is really an improvement.(RLV with GPS data) I see no flickering Vspeed anymore and Vbrk only now and then in corners.
I will go on testing on other RLV's

SMC
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Location: Toronto

Re: Virtual speed

Post by SMC » Wed Jan 20, 2016 2:39 pm

I have found the same improvement with vspeed/brake after updating to 4.18.5.

Seems much more consistent with application now on my Neo.

Prior to this I could be on a flat straight section of road and vbrake would have me slowing to 20kph for seconds at a time.

Scott

MTB
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by MTB » Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:28 pm

It's better but not perfect. Seems Vspeed is still there but only hidden and less stronger than with the former versions. Still when you encounter a change of gradient it is there and to strong. I drove Dordogne today. When going downhill -1.5% I still feel to much resistance when driving 35-40 km/h. In real life you would easily reach 45-50 km/h. Whenever the slope changes to -0.5% it feels like diving against a wall for 1 or 2 seconds. After that you need less power
Conclusion: Vspeed is still there but "hidden" although no red text Vspeed flickering. The reaction when changing slopes occur is still to strong and completely not needed.
Vbrk seems to be better in corners. I need to check this on RLV's I have driven before.

tnikolai
Posts: 62
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by tnikolai » Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:47 am

Here can see problem.
errpower.png
I ride all time with same speed ~ 20km/h(check by bike computer) at free cycling.
And slowly increase slope from 0 to 5%.

At 3% slope real speed changes to virtual and power drops from 215W to 170W.
graph must be so
e_1.png
e_1.png (1.14 KiB) Viewed 4715 times
not so
e_2.png
e_2.png (965 Bytes) Viewed 4715 times
This problem is very actually for i-flow trainer. Very long time tacx dont fix this very big problem.

tnikolai
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by tnikolai » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:02 am

And at big slope with virtual speed need ride with power>70 watt or it show inadequate speed/power values and stops training - very annoying problem.

forumaweather
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by forumaweather » Sat Jan 23, 2016 4:39 pm

OddPower.jpg
Reported power at constant effort
Exactly the same issue. Here is a graph where I switch between 4% slope (real speed) and 4.5% slope (virtual speed) repeatedly. Through the whole test I am cycling at the same cadence in the same gear, and the trainer resistance does not change (it is at its max at 4%)...so I am putting in a constant power.

It is clearly seen that the expected drop in reported speed as it switches into Virtual mode is accompanied by an unexpected drop in reported power (50 watts or so). The power graph should be totally flat since I am putting in the same watts the whole time.

It is entirely consistent and repeatable, and this thread confirms that I am clearly not the only one with this behaviour on TTS4 with an iMagic / iFlow. That is why I don't understand why it has not been fixed for so long - there must be loads of people with the problem? I'd be very keen to know if there is anyone out there with the same brake and TTS4 that doesn't get this behaviour?

Can anyone shed any light on why/how this happens?

PiPPi
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by PiPPi » Sat Jan 23, 2016 5:07 pm

Updated to 4.18.5 and the V.SPD-light still goes on and off irregularily on 0% slope at very low power and speeds like 5-10 km/hour.

Screw this. I can't afford to dump my POS Tacx and buy something new that works as expected so I'll just use what I have as a stand-alone dumb trainer and log absolute speed/cadence and heartbeat by Smart-sensors to Runmeter on the iPhone.

Lesson learned. Stay away from Tacx.

About being screwed. A recent post from another part of this forum:
Albeit wrote:After owning, a tacx i-fortius trainger for about 14 years and being happy with it, I just couldn't believe that when I upgraded to the Bushido things went so bad....how can a company like tacx be so sloppy?! I see them going the way of RIM/Blackberry's....

Based on research the outstanding trainer for me appears to be Bkool and its associated software. I'm sending my Bushido back and going to order one of them.... I'll re-post if that all works out as I haven't actually tried one yet.

ttelmah
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by ttelmah » Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:27 pm

For me (on a Fortius), the V Brk and V Spd behaviour is just as bad with with the .5 version as it has been for the last six months or so with all the TTS versions. Years ago, it basically worked, only displaying on climbing steep hills, or at real speed in descents, but for everything more recent, it has been 'silly'. It also affects the actual results in trainings. You get to speed, and then can pour in more power, and you don't go any faster.

PiPPi
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by PiPPi » Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:37 pm

Still waiting for hardware to be able to lessen my dependence on TTS so I ran a CP20 test today. It used to work in that I could at least run through it and get the results. Now after the upgrade the test runs fine, at the end I got a "success"-message, then a second window pops up, saying that the test failed. The result is gone.

I am so frustrated for having bought a product from Tacx. A software update actually worsens the relaibility and it cannot handle the most basic stuff anymore, a fitness test. Really defeats the purpose of a trainer and takes away from trainer-training.

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ms6073
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by ms6073 » Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:12 pm

forumaweather wrote:
OddPower.jpg
Through the whole test I am cycling at the same cadence in the same gear, and the trainer resistance does not change (it is at its max at 4%)...so I am putting in a constant power.
Wow. It is plainly evident in your screen shot that cadence is consistent at ~85 rpm yet speed and powerare consistently dropping at a specific interval throughout the climb! Have you sent an email with that screen shot attached, to Tacx support?
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Tacx Video Production
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by Tacx Video Production » Tue Jan 26, 2016 6:45 pm

forumaweather wrote:
OddPower.jpg
Exactly the same issue. Here is a graph where I switch between 4% slope (real speed) and 4.5% slope (virtual speed) repeatedly. Through the whole test I am cycling at the same cadence in the same gear, and the trainer resistance does not change (it is at its max at 4%)...so I am putting in a constant power.

It is clearly seen that the expected drop in reported speed as it switches into Virtual mode is accompanied by an unexpected drop in reported power (50 watts or so). The power graph should be totally flat since I am putting in the same watts the whole time.

It is entirely consistent and repeatable, and this thread confirms that I am clearly not the only one with this behaviour on TTS4 with an iMagic / iFlow. That is why I don't understand why it has not been fixed for so long - there must be loads of people with the problem? I'd be very keen to know if there is anyone out there with the same brake and TTS4 that doesn't get this behaviour?

Can anyone shed any light on why/how this happens?
This is a bug in the software or firmware, hopefully they will get this fixed soon, watts cant change depending on the grade, as you said watts is completely dependent on your effort, if it does not alter then neither should the watts. Another thing thats highlighting the error here is your heart rate which is completely steady...normally it would drop if there was a real drop in watts/effort

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Lunatix
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by Lunatix » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:47 am

forumaweather wrote:
OddPower.jpg
Exactly the same issue. Here is a graph where I switch between 4% slope (real speed) and 4.5% slope (virtual speed) repeatedly. Through the whole test I am cycling at the same cadence in the same gear, and the trainer resistance does not change (it is at its max at 4%)...so I am putting in a constant power.

It is clearly seen that the expected drop in reported speed as it switches into Virtual mode is accompanied by an unexpected drop in reported power (50 watts or so). The power graph should be totally flat since I am putting in the same watts the whole time.

It is entirely consistent and repeatable, and this thread confirms that I am clearly not the only one with this behaviour on TTS4 with an iMagic / iFlow. That is why I don't understand why it has not been fixed for so long - there must be loads of people with the problem? I'd be very keen to know if there is anyone out there with the same brake and TTS4 that doesn't get this behaviour?

Can anyone shed any light on why/how this happens?
Hi everyone, I'm a dev answering through Lunatix's account.

From the quoted post by forumaweather I can clearly see that the issue is within the trainer (aka brake), I'll explain why:
The software we develop for Tacx always outputs the following values 1 on 1 reported by the trainers (or sensors): Heart rate, cadance and power.

The speed is always virtual and is calculated based on the speed and power reported by the trainers (or sensors).
Only when the virtual speed deviates from the reported speed by a certain margin (forgive me, I don't know the exact margin by heart) it will display the red "V Spd" label to indicate this to you.

Thus if the power drops (for whatever reason) the virtual speed will also drop as the power influences the calculation.

I'm sorry this still doesn't explain why the power drops, that is something Tacx will need to investigate (I reported this to the responsible manager at Tacx).


I hope this clarifies at least something for you all.

Kind regards,
***

PiPPi
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by PiPPi » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:58 am

Lunatix wrote:I hope this clarifies at least something for you all.
Thanks for your effort, but AFAIC, no, it clarifies very little.
Lunatix wrote:Only when the virtual speed deviates from the reported speed by a certain margin (forgive me, I don't know the exact margin by heart) it will display the red "V Spd" label to indicate this to you.
To clarify, can you please get back on the numbers of that "certain margin"?

tnikolai
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by tnikolai » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:59 pm

I check old fortius 2 program. I ride all time with real speed 15 km/h.
When i increase slope , power reach maximum 160 watt at 3.6 slope and dont change anymore.

With same settings and real speed(15 km/h) at tts4.18.5 power reach maximun 190watt at 3.2 slope, and next drops to 130 watt and dont change anymore.

What is corresct? Seems at tts4 real power overstated by 30watt and virtual power understated by 30 watt.
but only speed can be virtual, power always must be only real.

2) V speed icon sometimes blinking at middle slopes, where must be only real speed.
3) at downhills when resistance is minimal (only wheel rubbing ~ 50watt) sometimes i sense brake resistance. After uphill sometimes brake dont turn off and continue give resistance at downhill , but power show minimal values as without resistance. I clearly remember long downhill with ~ -3% slope and all time was very high resistance(~150watt) but shows only 30-70 watt.

thebigoneinfront
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by thebigoneinfront » Wed Jan 27, 2016 4:14 pm

Lunatix wrote:The speed is always virtual and is calculated based on the speed and power reported by the trainers (or sensors).
Only when the virtual speed deviates from the reported speed by a certain margin (forgive me, I don't know the exact margin by heart) it will display the red "V Spd" label to indicate this to you.
See the very first post in this thread - the magic number is 10 %. :D

ttelmah
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Location: UK

Re: Virtual speed

Post by ttelmah » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:40 pm

I think the key problem here may be lack of damping.
I can ride a straight flat road, and have the V.spd display flashing twice on each pedal rotation. The lack of real inertia in the trainer, and it having to simulate this by modulating the brake, results in it being fractionally behind as I push on the pedal down-stroke. Surprised it reaches 10%, but that is what appears to be happening....

forumaweather
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by forumaweather » Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:59 pm

Lunatix wrote: I'm sorry this still doesn't explain why the power drops, that is something Tacx will need to investigate (I reported this to the responsible manager at Tacx).


I hope this clarifies at least something for you all.

***
Thanks very much for taking the time to explain this.
If the software always reports power exactly 1 to 1, can you tell me if a signal is going out from the software to the brake to tell it that the slope has changed from 4% to 4.5%? If it is a trainer problem, something must be triggering it to mis-report power when the slope is changed. As far as I understood it, the brake wouldn't know that I had changed the slope from 4% to 4.5%. I thought that would be handled by the software since the brake is already at maximum resistance. Unless the software doesn't tell the trainer what resistance to apply, but some other signal?

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raceface_lefty
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by raceface_lefty » Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:46 pm

PiPPi wrote:
forumaweather wrote:snips some important text
That's the proverbial nail in the coffin. Whenever the opportunity comes I will link to this thread and strongly recommend all potential trainer buyers I run into to stay the hell away from Tacx. So very disappointing that it apparently is an old issue too.
In the same way you would advise iPhone buyers to steer clear of the iPhone 2 or even 4 if they want the new camera software? Please get rid of your old superseded trainer and stop complaining that something that was discontinued a number of years ago does not work with 2015/2016 software. Just listen to yourself. It's pathetic.
If you don't fall you're going too slow.

PiPPi
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by PiPPi » Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:18 pm

raceface_lefty wrote:
PiPPi wrote:
forumaweather wrote:snips some important text
That's the proverbial nail in the coffin. Whenever the opportunity comes I will link to this thread and strongly recommend all potential trainer buyers I run into to stay the hell away from Tacx. So very disappointing that it apparently is an old issue too.
In the same way you would advise iPhone buyers to steer clear of the iPhone 2 or even 4 if they want the new camera software? Please get rid of your old superseded trainer and stop complaining that something that was discontinued a number of years ago does not work with 2015/2016 software. Just listen to yourself. It's pathetic.
My unit was purchased brand new in september, 2015. Are you seriously suggesting that to solve the problems I and others have with Tacx, we should dump what we have bought recently? And put more money into a company that clearly struggles as regards to the quality of their product offerings?

Sure, I should've done more research but fell for the Tacx branding which was pretty good at the time. Not any more and it's very clear that the issues Tacx owners have are not isolated to "superseded" trainers.

Thanks for fanning the fire.

kristofnovi
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by kristofnovi » Fri Jan 29, 2016 10:39 pm

Too much calculation and speed virtualization
with Neo in VR.
Great improvement in 4.18.5, but still far from what I experienced with TTS3 and fortius.

I wished the NEO was more realistic in receiving the slope/resistance feedback from the software and reporting the speed back as it is produced by the rider. Instead, all is virtual and acts like automatic transmission in a car; we produce the wattage and the software applies it to the road in form of the calculated speed, but with too much averaging.

It appears as my speed is averaged over 5 seconds or so. If I accelerate suddenly to pass an opponent by increasing my cadence by 20% with the same gearing, it takes at least 3 or more seconds to see any impact on speed and probably another 5 seconds to stabilize the speed but never at 20% higher.
You can see the impact at start of the ride; I will put all the effort and pedal like crazy, only to gain speed slowly. TTS4 reads the power and applies it toward movement without increasing resistance to the brake for quite a while.
When riding downhill and pedaling, if I stop pedaling the trainer slows down while reported speed is constant. I understand that it is not needed to turn the trainer with 40+ km/hr and instead just pretend to go that fast, but the sensation is gone.

I tried NEO with online riding sites and I think their VR acts more realistic than TTS4.

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