Virtual speed

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Lunatix
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Virtual speed

Post by Lunatix » Fri Oct 09, 2015 2:25 pm

I'll try to explain what the speeds shown in TTs are:

When a trainer cannot apply enough resistance, the measured speed does not comply with your exercise (training program) anymore.
To solve this the speed is calculated (Virtual Speed) based on the power you are producing and the exercise data (current slope).

e.g. You are riding an exercise which consists of a single 10 % slope on a trainer which can only apply enough resistance to simulate a 7 % slope.
Using measured speed you will finish the exercise much sooner compared to actually riding the same 10 % slope in real life, because the trainer cannot apply enough resistance causing you to go faster resulting in the exercise costing you less effort.
Using virtual speed your exercise will be much closer to actually riding the same 10 % slope in real life, because it calculates how fast you would be going on a 10 % slope based on the effort (power) you are producing on the trainer

Keep in mind speed shown in TTs4 is also NOT the raw speed from the trainer. It's always calculated with the same virtual speed calculations but not flagged as virtual speed cause it's less than 10% deviation from the RAW speed of the trainer.

Measured speed from a sensor is treated as raw speed.

thebigoneinfront
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by thebigoneinfront » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:39 pm

Lunatix wrote:Keep in mind speed shown in TTs4 is also NOT the raw speed from the trainer. It's always calculated with the same virtual speed calculations but not flagged as virtual speed cause it's less than 10% deviation from the RAW speed of the trainer.

Measured speed from a sensor is treated as raw speed.
Thanks for the enlightenment! I always thought speed must be just measured at the brake because it's so easy to measure that. Information about the logic behind TTS helps to understand its behaviour.

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Edgarini
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by Edgarini » Sat Oct 10, 2015 5:33 am

thebigoneinfront wrote:
Lunatix wrote:Keep in mind speed shown in TTs4 is also NOT the raw speed from the trainer. It's always calculated with the same virtual speed calculations but not flagged as virtual speed cause it's less than 10% deviation from the RAW speed of the trainer.

Measured speed from a sensor is treated as raw speed.
Thanks for the enlightenment! I always thought speed must be just measured at the brake because it's so easy to measure that. Information about the logic behind TTS helps to understand its behaviour.
+1 on that. Despite other possible issues, such concise explanations of how the program works from it's developers is much appreciated. I too also assumed that speed was simply calculated by roller RPM, but other posts stating that is was calculated from power output confounded me. This clears it up. Thx Lunatix.

tnikolai
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by tnikolai » Fri Dec 11, 2015 12:33 pm

When virtual speed will work correct at i-flow?
When appear virtual speed , power decreased by 30%.
For example at 3.2% slope normal speed ~ 250 watt, at 3.3% - virtual speed and power only 180 watt.
Why lost 70 watt??? I ride with same resistance, transmission, cadence, only slope +0.1% - lost 70 watt!

AndGru
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by AndGru » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:30 am

Hi,
I'm using i-vortex with TTS (4.17.3), power meter and Edge 1000.
Watt-based (Watt-distance, Watt-time) training is only working choosing "FREE TRAINING". Here EDGE, power meter and TTS4 readings match pretty well.
Working with defined watt-training (distance or time) gives big differences in speed and distance (up to 50% -virtual speed indicator sign is NOT shown). I tried different slope settings to be inside i-vortex operating range - no change.
When using the SAME slope/Watt settings in "FREE TRAINING" mode it works perfectly but not if I'm defining a Watt-sequence training.

TACX support gave feedback -> "our developers cannot find the problem".
For me this is really disappointing as a WATT based training program is not possible.

Am I the only one suffering with this problem ?
Any ideas what I can do? Any help is highly appreciated!

PS: Is there somebody who can do a WATT based training program which is really working?

AndGru
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by AndGru » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:51 am

Is there any option to switch off this virtual calculations?
Note:
For me the virtual stuff gives only problems. I have my training program and do NOT work with multiplayer or similar.
I think it would be better to see the raw values (like brakes from other manufacturers) instead of hard to understand, not reproducible and maybe buggy virtual values.
Idea would be to show both (raw and virtual values) so I can choose what I want.

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jpalcover
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by jpalcover » Sun Dec 13, 2015 1:20 pm

AndGru wrote:Is there any option to switch off this virtual calculations?
Note:
For me the virtual stuff gives only problems. I have my training program and do NOT work with multiplayer or similar.
I think it would be better to see the raw values (like brakes from other manufacturers) instead of hard to understand, not reproducible and maybe buggy virtual values.
Idea would be to show both (raw and virtual values) so I can choose what I want.
Just use an additional speed sensor on your bike (the one you would use when riding outdoors) and read speed from a separate "computer" (Garmin or other)
Running TTS4.19.1 on
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mcinner
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by mcinner » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:31 pm

It is not necessary to use a speed sensor (like on your bike).
At least the NEO delivers raw-speed which can be read with a Garmin Edge.
I assume all other smart trainers do the same...

Concerning VIRTUAL SPEED:
I'm very frustrated of that calculation.
There are 2 reasons:

1) Riding a Tacx film (i.e. Colle della finestra) with strong ascents (10%) I ride a raw speed of 5 km/h.
The virtual speed goes down to 2 km/h. That would'nt bother me - but the program goes often to "Pause-mode" and asks if I want end the ride, but I'm STILL RIDING!!!!

2) When riding in virtual worlds on slight descents (-2%) my Tacx NEO does wonderful work - he rides for himself and I can stop spinning. But stopping spinning causes zero-power and zero-cadence (of course).
But that causes the virtual speed going from let's say 20 km/h to zero - from one moment to the other.
My NEO still cycles but virtuel speed say: NO cycling anymore.
VERY ANNOYING!!!

TACX - Please give us an option in TTS-settings to disable virtual speed!

Thank you for your attention!

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jpalcover
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by jpalcover » Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:06 pm

mcinner wrote:It is not necessary to use a speed sensor (like on your bike).
At least the NEO delivers raw-speed which can be read with a Garmin Edge.
I assume all other smart trainers do the same...
According to his post
AndGru wrote:Hi,
I'm using i-vortex with TTS (4.17.3), power meter and Edge 1000.
He is not using a NEO! :) :)
Running TTS4.19.1 on
WIN 10 PRO 64bit
i7-4790 4.0 GHz; 24GB RAM @ 1600 MHz; AMD Radeon R9 270 2GB
256 GB SSD (System) + 2TB HDD (data); BluRay drive
i-Genius (Brake fw: 1.1.325); Satori

thebigoneinfront
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by thebigoneinfront » Sun Dec 13, 2015 9:12 pm

mcinner wrote:TACX - Please give us an option in TTS-settings to disable virtual speed!
Tacx won't listen here. Anyhow, the Neo shouldn't ever set you on virtual speed - just just look at its power diagram, there's no realistically conceivable power/speed area it can't cover. There's something wrong between the Neo firmware and TTS. I see virtual speed in RlVs, too, while cruising along at 30 km/h on a flat road. No way the Neo really needs virtual speed to cover that.

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Lunatix
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by Lunatix » Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:26 am

thebigoneinfront wrote:
mcinner wrote:TACX - Please give us an option in TTS-settings to disable virtual speed!
Tacx won't listen here. Anyhow, the Neo shouldn't ever set you on virtual speed - just just look at its power diagram, there's no realistically conceivable power/speed area it can't cover. There's something wrong between the Neo firmware and TTS. I see virtual speed in RlVs, too, while cruising along at 30 km/h on a flat road. No way the Neo really needs virtual speed to cover that.
We are working on the NEO's values it sends out that our applications use to calculate the speeds. At this moment the curve is very different from the other trainers therefor the calculation shows virtual speed at very wrong times.

sgarnier
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by sgarnier » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:36 am

Good news.
I hope amber VSD will stop flashing.

ttelmah
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by ttelmah » Thu Dec 17, 2015 5:21 pm

Hopefully also applies to the Fortius, which flashes the virtual speed warning like a Belisha beacon at times on flat straight roads, for no apparent reason....

clepetar
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by clepetar » Mon Dec 21, 2015 6:51 am

On an iVortex with TTS 4.18.3, I get the Red "V.Speed" and Amber "V.Break" flashing almost all the time independently of the slope %.

Last year with a much older TTS version, I had normal speed between 0% to 4% slopes (white numbers), and virtual speed with negative slopes or slopes >4% (red numbers).

It seems the new Virtual Speed algorithm is bugged it shouldn't constantly pop-up for near 0% flat slopes.

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Re: Virtual speed

Post by ttelmah » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:40 pm

Exactly.

A couple of years ago, I only ever saw virtual speed, when you were on something like one of the climbs in the Lake District, and the slope got up over 20%, or going really fast round a bend on a descent. Now it appears almost random. It's not as bad now as it was a few versions ago - at one point it was almost impossible to ride anything without this flashing), but is still happening at all sorts of 'inexplicable' places.

clepetar
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by clepetar » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:44 pm

Based on the iVortex tech spec I can found on the Tacx website, the iVortex is able to generate a max breaking power of 950 Watt over 10 sec, and sprint breaking power of 750 Watt over 1 minute. They also say that for a weight of 165 lb, the iVrotex is able to simulate realisticaly 7% slopes.

For the iGenius the tech spec says 1500 Watt, 1200 Watt and 20% realistic slopes.

I am 175 lb and I used to see the red number appearing for slopes > 4% (Seems like Tacx was a bit over optimistic with their 7% slopes).

Now no matter how Tacx tries to explain it, there should be a range of slope % for a given weight where the device is able to simulate realistaclly the resistance without Virtual Speed enabled. So far I don't see this so the new algorithm is certainly bugged.

I hope you guys fixed this very annoying feature.

clepetar
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by clepetar » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:42 am

Here is another annoying bug that appeared since I upgraded to 4.18.3 from last year version.

I have a couple Tacx film from CDs and from the web I downloaded. I rode them all numerous times in the last 2 years.

Now when I start a film from the beginning, the film does not wait that I start pedaling and start moving at 35+ km/h. I noticed that even during the countdown from 10 to 0, the V.Speed and V.Break annunciators keeps flashing. Then when the countdown is over the film starts moving at 35+ km/h when I am not even pedaling.

I did some tests and the problem occurs on all the films, only when I start them from the beginning (Total ride or subsegments starting at the beginning of the film). If I use a subsegment not starting at the begining of the film, or just move the starting point manually a tiny bit the problem is gone and the film waits for me to pedal before moving.

Seems to me like another Virtual Speed bug occuring at initialisation of the V Speed algorithm when starting at the beginning of a Tacx Film.

Would be great if Tacx could fix that it is very annoying and was not occuring in last year versions of TTS.

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Alex Masalovich
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by Alex Masalovich » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:43 am

Changelog for beta 4.18.4:

•TTs4 with the use of DPI settings should now scale correctly
•NEO virtual speed disabled
•Improved the Virtual speed calculations
•Upload to trainingpeaks improved and fixed the Speed report
•GPS view has new labels and rider indicator
Тренируйтесь много, отдыхайте ещё больше!

larsfn
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by larsfn » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:53 pm

clepetar wrote:Here is another annoying bug that appeared since I upgraded to 4.18.3 from last year version.

I have a couple Tacx film from CDs and from the web I downloaded. I rode them all numerous times in the last 2 years.

Now when I start a film from the beginning, the film does not wait that I start pedaling and start moving at 35+ km/h. I noticed that even during the countdown from 10 to 0, the V.Speed and V.Break annunciators keeps flashing. Then when the countdown is over the film starts moving at 35+ km/h when I am not even pedaling.

I did some tests and the problem occurs on all the films, only when I start them from the beginning (Total ride or subsegments starting at the beginning of the film). If I use a subsegment not starting at the begining of the film, or just move the starting point manually a tiny bit the problem is gone and the film waits for me to pedal before moving.

Seems to me like another Virtual Speed bug occuring at initialisation of the V Speed algorithm when starting at the beginning of a Tacx Film.

Would be great if Tacx could fix that it is very annoying and was not occuring in last year versions of TTS.
Hmm. Does the route/gradient follow the "runaway video" or do training/video get out of sync. when this abnormality happens ?
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Re: Virtual speed

Post by martin_vortex » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:56 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:Changelog for beta 4.18.4:

•TTs4 with the use of DPI settings should now scale correctly
•NEO virtual speed disabled
•Improved the Virtual speed calculations
•Upload to trainingpeaks improved and fixed the Speed report
•GPS view has new labels and rider indicator

But the most important one: now completely bug free!
I thought of that while riding my bike.
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On the Theory of Relativity.

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