Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

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tnikolai
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Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:45 am

wt.png
wt.png (7.46 KiB) Viewed 2566 times
So Neo has realistic slope 13%-20%, not 25%. High slopes make sense for low speed.

Calculator: http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSpeedScenarios.aspx
------------------------------------------------------------
M total mass,kg
V bike speed,km/hour
W trainer resistance,watt
m meter =0.001km
h height
g 9.8meter/sec²
Joule =watt*sec=kg*meter²/sec²
s =sin(arctg(slope)). If bike ride 1 meter, heigh gain will be sin(arctg(slope)) meters.

Energy electrical (for 1 seconds) =1sec * W watt =W Joule
Heigh gain (for 1 seconds) =1sec *V km/hour * s=1sec *V 1000/3600 meter/sec * s=V*s*(1/3.6) meter
Energy (Potential Mgh) =*M kg*9.8meter/sec²*V*s*(1/3.6) meter =2.7222*M*V*s kg*meter²/sec²=2.7222*M*V*s Joule

So 2.7222*M*V*s=W (for ideal bike)
Last edited by tnikolai on Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:13 am, edited 7 times in total.

tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:00 pm

I test in real:
gear 1-1, cadence 70rpm, slope~17%, speed 6km/h
i can hardly ride 100meters.

at neo:
tts4 settings: 95kg, mtb bike, slope 17%,
gear 1-1 cadence 70rpm
tts4 show speed only 2.6km/h and resistance is low

only at gear 1-4 & cadence 70rpm tts4 shows 6.5km/h and resistance also correspond ~6km/h in real.
But in real at gear 1-4 & cadence 70rpm my speed is 8.7km/h

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ms6073
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by ms6073 » Thu Sep 22, 2016 2:30 pm

While these user forums are hosted by Tacx, the support team does not actively moderate or monitor these forums. You would get the quickest answers to your question by sending an email with the information in these posts to support@tacx.com.
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Alex Masalovich
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by Alex Masalovich » Thu Sep 22, 2016 7:58 pm

tnikolai wrote:My weight is 95kg, mtb bike,
So tacx neo can simulate only 10% slope, not 25%?
Too much weight :(
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by A van Ark » Thu Sep 22, 2016 8:28 pm

Interesting post and I wonder what Tacx reply Will Be.

NOT everybody is 70kg and 95kg is imho NOT that :!: heavy, unless you are a dwarf :?

Did you install the latest firmware?
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tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Thu Sep 22, 2016 9:33 pm

75 kg is body + bike?
so my 95kg+ bike, bagpack, water ~ 15kg =110kg
75kg - max 25% slope, 110kg- max 17%

I test on ~17% slope in real(check by sigma rox 10)
gear 1-1, 6km/h, 70rpm . very tired after 30 sec.

at same settings in tts4 : gear 1-1, 70rpm , 17% slope, 110kg
it shows only 2.8km/h and small resistance.
when i change gear to 1-4, 70rpm - 6km/h and resistance is ~ same as for real 6km/h. But real speed for gear 1-4, 70 rpm must be 8.6 km/h.

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Alex Masalovich
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by Alex Masalovich » Thu Sep 22, 2016 10:12 pm

Genius: each 5 kg above 75 kg reduce the max realistic slope by 1 %.
Neo: probably the same thing.
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tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:16 am

Alex Masalovich wrote:Genius: each 5 kg above 75 kg reduce the max realistic slope by 1 %.
Neo: probably the same thing.
Need realistic slope for 75kg multiple by 75 and divide by your total weight.

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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by A van Ark » Fri Sep 23, 2016 6:25 am

Did you install the latest firmware?
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http://www.vabs.nl/

tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:42 am

A van Ark wrote:Did you install the latest firmware?
yes

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Alex Masalovich
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by Alex Masalovich » Fri Sep 23, 2016 11:44 am

And what is a realistic maximum slope for Neo (75 kg)? The Tacx's site provides conflicting information. This table shows the slope of 20 %, not 25 %:
http://wwwstatic3.tacx.nl/Media/Default ... d%20LR.pdf
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tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Fri Sep 23, 2016 12:34 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:And what is a realistic maximum slope for Neo (75 kg)? The Tacx's site provides conflicting information. This table shows the slope of 20 %, not 25 %:
http://wwwstatic3.tacx.nl/Media/Default ... d%20LR.pdf
Strange,
At my trainer box written 25%, and at other places i see only 25%

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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by A van Ark » Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:04 pm

http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... 637&page=4

It should Be quiet adequate simulating real Road feel, see # 100
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tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Sat Sep 24, 2016 8:34 pm

wt.png
wt.png (7.46 KiB) Viewed 2566 times
So Neo has realistic slope 13%-20%, not 25%. High slopes make sense for low speed.

Calculator: http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSpeedScenarios.aspx
------------------------------------------------------------
M total mass,kg
V bike speed,km/hour
W trainer resistance,watt
m meter =0.001km
h height
g 9.8meter/sec²
Joule =watt*sec=kg*meter²/sec²
s =sin(arctg(slope)). If bike ride 1 meter, heigh gain will be sin(arctg(slope)) meters.

Energy electrical (for 1 seconds) =1sec * W watt =W Joule
Heigh gain (for 1 seconds) =1sec *V km/hour * s=1sec *V 1000/3600 meter/sec * s=V*s*(1/3.6) meter
Energy (Potential Mgh) =*M kg*9.8meter/sec²*V*s*(1/3.6) meter =2.7222*M*V*s kg*meter²/sec²=2.7222*M*V*s Joule

So 2.7222*M*V*s=W (for ideal bike)[/quote]
Last edited by tnikolai on Mon Sep 26, 2016 12:12 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Alex Masalovich
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by Alex Masalovich » Sat Sep 24, 2016 10:15 pm

tnikolai wrote: Heigh gain (for 1 seconds) =1sec *V km/hour * slope=1sec *V 1000/3600 meter/sec * slope=V*slope*(1/3.6) meter
A small inaccuracy in the calculation of height. Slope is the ratio of vertical displacement to horizontal displacement.
Your formula is correct for the horizontal velocity component.
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tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Sun Sep 25, 2016 12:37 am

Alex Masalovich wrote:
tnikolai wrote: Heigh gain (for 1 seconds) =1sec *V km/hour * slope=1sec *V 1000/3600 meter/sec * slope=V*slope*(1/3.6) meter
A small inaccuracy in the calculation of height. Slope is the ratio of vertical displacement to horizontal displacement.
Your formula is correct for the horizontal velocity component.
Yes need use sin(atan(slope)).

tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Sun Sep 25, 2016 2:43 am

If slope slightly exceed neo capabilites, then realistic slope will be as in second column (must be 25%)
6km/h - 11.4% / 15.0%
7km/h - 14.3% / 17.4%
8km/h - 16.0% / 19.5%
9km/h - 17.85%/ 21.1%
10km/h- 18.3% / 21.5%

But if exceed is bigger neo can give slightly more resistance. On Power training if set maximal 1500 watt, actual slope as in column 3.

So realistic slope only 11.4%-18.3% :cry:


Also at high slopes apear jerking, so flywheel effect is also bad.

tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:26 pm

Somebody test Neo resistance at speed 6-10km/h?
required power can calculate here http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSpeedScenarios.aspx
(CdA need set to 0)

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ms6073
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by ms6073 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 6:58 pm

I have tested the resistance of our Neo's with the Tacx Utility app at speeds down to 2-3 Km/h and 20-30 rpm cadences. Comparing the outputs from the Tacx app to those of my Garmin measure power and cadence from our SRM's and found the cadence to be spot on, and the resistance of the Neo to be within 2-3 watts, but speed of the Neo during Watt-Time workouts has never matched.
TTS 4.19.1 | T2800 NEO Smart [formerly Bushido & Fortius]
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GeForce GTX 870M | 256 GB SSD x 2 RAID 0 + 1 TB HDD
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tnikolai
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Re: Tacx Neo Smart - Virtual speed?

Post by tnikolai » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:06 pm

ms6073 wrote:I have tested the resistance of our Neo's with the Tacx Utility app at speeds down to 2-3 Km/h and 20-30 rpm cadences. Comparing the outputs from the Tacx app to those of my Garmin measure power and cadence from our SRM's and found the cadence to be spot on, and the resistance of the Neo to be within 2-3 watts, but speed of the Neo during Watt-Time workouts has never matched.
Maximum resistance enought ?
For example 6km/h, slope 25% and total weight = 75kg, resistance must be 300watt.
can calculate by http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerSpeedScenarios.aspx
Need set slope so, that your weight*slope > 75kg*25%, and see how many watt give neo.
At me only 140 watt instead of 300. If set maximum as possible slope & weight in settings or in power mode set maximum watt, can increase resistance to 180watt.

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