New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

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wasupwitdat1
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by wasupwitdat1 » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:18 pm

The version I see on my Andriod phone app says 0.2.1/0.7.4/0.8.4 This is the latest right? It is working just fine for me.
Last edited by wasupwitdat1 on Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by mcorn » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:52 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:58 pm
mcorn wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:52 pm
It's kind of a technical point, but are you sure it is in the public domain? Or is it simply something a non-Tacx person has provided public access to?
Yes, inaccurate translation. This refers to public access.
Tacx has pretty much tried to build a system that takes away a lot of user control on firmware updates. They used to post firmware on the website and allow users to download and install or not install which versions they wanted. Requiring updates through the Utility App and embedding firmware updates in the app makes it very hard for a user to roll back to the last version if the latest version has problems.

Although all of this seems pretty irritating, in its defense, Tacx may have some good reasons for its approach. First, bad firmware can actually cause damage to hardware and obviously the company doesn't want that kind of firmware floating around and getting installed. Back in the days of the Fortius trainer, there was bad firmware in the first sales of the power supply of 110 volt units that often caused them to self-destruct on power down. That debacle cost them a lot of money and made a lot of customers angry. Second, not having the latest firmware probably leads to lots of unnecessary support requests that would be completely avoided if the user had the correct firmware installed.

But of course, all of this does depend on the firmware, software, and hardware all generally working together as they should. One other thing that complicates all of this is the use of Tacx hardware on third-party software, like Zwift. Although there are theoretically standards that should assure interoperability, in practice this is often not the case.

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by Alex Masalovich » Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:26 pm

mcorn wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:52 pm
Second, not having the latest firmware probably leads to lots of unnecessary support requests that would be completely avoided if the user had the correct firmware installed.
Just exactly the lack of open access to all versions of firmware (except for those that can lead to damage to the device) increases the number of requests for support.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by mcorn » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:00 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:26 pm
mcorn wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:52 pm
Second, not having the latest firmware probably leads to lots of unnecessary support requests that would be completely avoided if the user had the correct firmware installed.
Just exactly the lack of open access to all versions of firmware (except for those that can lead to damage to the device) increases the number of requests for support.
That just is not necessarily true. You are ignoring all the support requests that come from people not have the correct, working firmware. You only have to browse the forum to see numerous cases of trainers not working properly because they do not have up to date firmware. There are many older firmware versions that just don't work right and if you have people installing or keeping these, they will have problems.

A compromise might be a system where you could roll back for a short period to the last version.

The best solution, of course, is to have good firmware and software. That is the primary thing that cuts down support requests.

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by Alex Masalovich » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:09 pm

mcorn wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:00 pm
That just is not necessarily true. You are ignoring all the support requests that come from people not have the correct, working firmware. You only have to browse the forum to see numerous cases of trainers not working properly because they do not have up to date firmware. There are many older firmware versions that just don't work right and if you have people installing or keeping these, they will have problems.
I do not understand this your argument. Users with old firmware will be in any case. Your argument would work if the firmware update was automatic and did not depend on the user's will.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by mcorn » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:16 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:09 pm
mcorn wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:00 pm
That just is not necessarily true. You are ignoring all the support requests that come from people not have the correct, working firmware. You only have to browse the forum to see numerous cases of trainers not working properly because they do not have up to date firmware. There are many older firmware versions that just don't work right and if you have people installing or keeping these, they will have problems.
I do not understand this your argument. Users with old firmware will be in any case. Your argument would work if the firmware update was automatic and did not depend on the user's will.
Tacx has not been able to go as far as Apple or sellers of Android devices where everything gets updated automatically when you start-up and connect to the Internet. That's probably what they would like to do. But they have tried to edge towards that with the Utility App which auto-updates on most devices. That auto-update embeds new firmware and users are encouraged to update on this one-way street. As I said before, assuming they are providing good firmware, having this kind of process should result in fewer support requests that arise from having outdated firmware that does not working correctly. But it is all based on "providing good firmware". If you aren't doing that, then obviously support requests will increase, not decrease.

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by Alex Masalovich » Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:23 pm

I'm for the user to have a choice.
The company Tacx tries to limit it.
You on whose side?
Let's hold a vote here.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by wasupwitdat1 » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:04 am

I like the way my motherboard manufacturer lists the Bios updates on their website. I have the option to choose which bios I want. I also am not sure doing firmware updates through the phones are a good idea. Got to be another way. I have Android and I have problems completing the updates every time.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by mcorn » Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am

BIOS updates are a very different situations. Most MB manufacturers do not recommend that you update the BIOS unless you have a specific problem that is addressed by a later BIOS update.

Frankly, having a wild west free-for-all is just plain dumb, but you can always play to the gallery by promoting "choice". After all, who can argue with freedom of choice, unless it is the freedom to do something dumb that causes far more problems than it solves. It just invites turning the product into a hacker's paradise, which is hardly a formula for reliability. And the starting issue here is whether a company should be burdened by problems caused by installing unauthorized firmware.

Don't get me wrong. I get as pissed as anyone when the product does not work as it should. But it is the company's responsibility to make it work and having people install any firmware they want just provides a convenient excuse for the company to say it's not my fault. As said before, I think a reasonable solution would be to have a roll back/restore function that allowed you to reinstall the last firmware if the new one was not working correctly.

My fairly new Vizio 65" 4K display is connected to the Internet in my house and it constantly updates the firmware without asking for permission. It simply tells me after the fact that it has done so. I would rather the manufacturer be competent than shift a bunch of technical judgments off to someone unqualified to make a decision.

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by DaveW » Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:04 am

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:27 pm
DaveW wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 1:17 am
so I've emailed support asking for instructions to roll back firmware
This is in the public domain:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/550jexzqjthkn ... mware?dl=0
Thanks but I how do you apply this? I don't see an option on the app to flash firmware from a file (iPhone app). Also how do I verify this is an official Tacx firmware file - as far as I'm aware Tacx don't publish checksums for their firmware anywhere as they don't expect users to download them from third parties. Does the firmware updater verify the file is valid before flashing?

[Edit: figured out how to open the file in the Tacx app, but Tacx support sent me the file so I used that and successfully reverted]

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by DaveW » Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 am

mcorn wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am
Don't get me wrong. I get as pissed as anyone when the product does not work as it should. But it is the company's responsibility to make it work and having people install any firmware they want just provides a convenient excuse for the company to say it's not my fault. As said before, I think a reasonable solution would be to have a roll back/restore function that allowed you to reinstall the last firmware if the new one was not working correctly.
I totally agree, I want the latest features so I don't have any issue with the current mechanism as long as the updates are properly tested / reliable and there's a way to roll back if necessary. I certainly don't have any desire to select any firmware version.

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by Alex Masalovich » Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 am

mcorn wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am
I think a reasonable solution would be to have a roll back/restore function that allowed you to reinstall the last firmware if the new one was not working correctly.

I would rather the manufacturer be competent
This is all good wishes. You are somewhere in the clouds. Return to reality!

And tell me, does this announcement reduce or increase the number of requests for support?
If you DID update and use this combination please email support@tacx.com, so we can send you instruction to go back to the old version.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TacxNeo ... 856272174/
I somehow begin to worry about your logic. But about the illogical decisions of the company Tacx I have long ceased to worry.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by mcorn » Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:58 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:42 am
mcorn wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:31 am
I think a reasonable solution would be to have a roll back/restore function that allowed you to reinstall the last firmware if the new one was not working correctly.

I would rather the manufacturer be competent
This is all good wishes. You are somewhere in the clouds. Return to reality!

And tell me, does this announcement reduce or increase the number of requests for support?
If you DID update and use this combination please email support@tacx.com, so we can send you instruction to go back to the old version.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/TacxNeo ... 856272174/
I somehow begin to worry about your logic. But about the illogical decisions of the company Tacx I have long ceased to worry.
Better to avoid personal attacks. If I somehow started it, I apologize.

I do value your contributions and your ability to offer solutions to some of these problems. We just see this one a little differently.

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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by Alex Masalovich » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:15 pm

DaveW wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:04 am
Also how do I verify this is an official Tacx firmware file - as far as I'm aware Tacx don't publish checksums for their firmware anywhere as they don't expect users to download them from third parties. Does the firmware updater verify the file is valid before flashing?

[Edit: figured out how to open the file in the Tacx app, but Tacx support sent me the file so I used that and successfully reverted]
That other users do not have such doubts, please post here the link you received from the support.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by Alex Masalovich » Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:17 pm

mcorn wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:58 pm
Better to avoid personal attacks.
I accept your offer.
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Re: New Utility app - fix for the Neo update customers

Post by DaveW » Sun Dec 31, 2017 1:12 am

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:15 pm
DaveW wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:04 am
Also how do I verify this is an official Tacx firmware file - as far as I'm aware Tacx don't publish checksums for their firmware anywhere as they don't expect users to download them from third parties. Does the firmware updater verify the file is valid before flashing?

[Edit: figured out how to open the file in the Tacx app, but Tacx support sent me the file so I used that and successfully reverted]
That other users do not have such doubts, please post here the link you received from the support.
They didn't send a link, they emailed the file directly.

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