brake type in bikenet

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phil13
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brake type in bikenet

Post by phil13 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:42 pm

it would be very cool if tacx could actived the field "brake type" in the challenge bikenet because the type of brake seem to have a high importance in the performance and it seem to be very difficlut to compare 2 performances with 2 differents trainers

alex33fr
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Post by alex33fr » Tue Dec 20, 2011 10:49 pm

Oh yes, this is really important !!
I don't understand why when we are trying to talk about this subject nobody seems to be concerned.
Please tacx, we are not asking for a big improvement, just want to know the brake type, to be sure we are comparing each other with a same type of brake.
Challenge is a non-sense without this feature, multiplayer also...

why nobody cares ???

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malfukt
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Post by malfukt » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:19 am

There`s been various posts re this subject..if you want to let Tacx know strength of feeling for this from users.. then setup a topic as a POLL for 4 weeks..once you have results email the link to the post to Tacx.. :)
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Neez
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Post by Neez » Wed Dec 21, 2011 12:58 am

In principle I fully agree with this ( I always check the tts run: speed above 60 km/hour => Bushido), but I think this would not solve the issue of comparability: calibration / weight setup etc. have major impact as well.

alex33fr
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Post by alex33fr » Wed Dec 21, 2011 10:59 am

take a look at the december challenge... look at the best time: 42:28
download it and look at the wattage, HR and cad in analyzer, then compare it to the second attempt of this guy at 15th rank actually at 49:46
there is obviously a little problem...

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Frisco
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Post by Frisco » Tue Jan 03, 2012 4:53 am

I think more info would be better - you should be able to see everyone's weight, calibration factor, FTP/CP so you know who you're riding with and if they're obviously cheating. It would also be good to have some groups setup that rank the different abilities similar to what you have in races (i.e., CAT1-5, etc.) so that people can compete against people of similar abilities.
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mathblais
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Post by mathblais » Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:42 pm

that problem is so pathetic

does it mean the Watts on a bushido is not equal than on a fortius and Genius?!?

alex33fr
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Post by alex33fr » Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:35 pm

probably not so much. The real problem is the way the different trainers convert the effort you put on the pedals into virtual speed. This is not normal that a bushido can go 80 km/h downhill while a fortius has a max speed of 60 km/h !!
What is the interest of a multiplayer "race" when you're riding a fortius and you get passed by bushido riders who goes 20 km/h faster than you and with less effort of course ???
My opinion is that at least the max speed of all the trainers should be the same, at least for multiplayer races. It should not be so hard to do, no ??
Of course, even with this problem we can have fun and we can train using multiplayer, but it could be sooooo better with the brake type and a sort of calibration between all the trainer models.

Bowie
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by Bowie » Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:39 pm

Yes it's true, bushido ergometer ehance displayed speed in descent, but you have to know that you cant stop moving legs. There is no inertia like genius.... You can't breathe in descent... so.....
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nsidirop
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by nsidirop » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:25 pm

I am not very happy with bikenet as it is right now. There are several issues.

1. Total rides of RLV are bunched together with part rides. Tacx please modify!

2. As discussed above the bushido might be giving a too optimistic speed in descends but this is usually balanced by too hard effort needed in uphills compared to other brake types. I ride on a bushido and usually when I compare my watts and time on uphill rides vs. other uploaded rides in Bikenet from riders with similar or equal weight as mine, I often find that they race faster even with lower watts. Either they have used a scaling factor or they are using a brake type which is easier to climb with.

3. Moreover I wonder what's the use of uploading e.g. a hilly ride with +80 kph in average speed ? Obviously the rider has been cheating. There should be a filter to clear out any unrealistic ride results. Moreover as mentioned above, in order to make relevant comparisons it should be noted which brake type is used and if scaling factor is used.

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Nasz
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by Nasz » Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:54 am

nsidirop wrote:I often find that they race faster even with lower watts. Either they have used a scaling factor or they are using a brake type which is easier to climb with.
Or they just have higher performance. If I compare my watts, speed and time with Tony Martin, he's faster and yet lower watts. However, there are a lot of rides listed per RLV (for example) and this will most likely rise as people only ride a portion of the route. However, you can reorder the listing by clicking on the headers.
Last edited by Nasz on Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by mcorn » Sun Feb 02, 2014 6:30 am

nsidirop wrote:There should be a filter to clear out any unrealistic ride results.
Don't really see this as being particularly feasible. People are only fooling themselves, anyway.

nsidirop
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by nsidirop » Sun Feb 02, 2014 11:34 am

Nasz wrote:
nsidirop wrote:I often find that they race faster even with lower watts. Either they have used a scaling factor or they are using a brake type which is easier to climb with.
Or they just have higher performance. If I compare my watts, speed and time with Tony Martin, he's faster and yet lower watts. However, there are a lot of rides listed per RLV (for example) and this will most likely rise as people only ride a portion of the route. However, you can reorder the listing by clicking on the headers.
Nasz, the only way that is possible uphill is if Tony has a higher watt/kg than you, is that what you meant with higher performance? The thing is that even when I compare my RLV rides in Bikenet with other riders of equal W/kg I often find myself running slower on my Bushido, that's why I draw the conclusion that the Bushido is much harder in ascends compared to other brake types alternatively other riders are using scaling factors.

shadowmate
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by shadowmate » Sun Feb 02, 2014 12:11 pm

I had a problem with this recently. I use a genius which compared to other trainers seems really fast. My speed was on par with people who had 50 plus watts more. It was a basically flat course too. Everyone elses power is good enough to put me near the bottom, but my speed put me near the top. The resulting graph makes me look like a cheat. I too vote for brake type to be entered and then the results can be filtered. Maybe even adjusted.

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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by mcorn » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:01 pm

shadowmate wrote:I had a problem with this recently. I use a genius which compared to other trainers seems really fast. My speed was on par with people who had 50 plus watts more. It was a basically flat course too. Everyone elses power is good enough to put me near the bottom, but my speed put me near the top. The resulting graph makes me look like a cheat. I too vote for brake type to be entered and then the results can be filtered. Maybe even adjusted.
Showing brakes is a good idea so users can assess comparability, but the hardware just has inherent differences. So people should learn it doesn't necessarily mean anyone is "cheating" (whatever that is). This problem exists a lot for Netathlon competitions, which accommodates trainers made by a number of manufacturers. I recall that Fortius users always lost out on the downhills due to its speed limitations (Genius has a similar problem). The Imagic/iFlow goes into virtual speed more often, so that creates issues of being too fast. On top of it, there are going to be big differences in the accuracy of calibration.

The main way that people can artificially alter their speed output ("cheating") is through body weight and deliberating creating too high of a calibration value (for example, by calibrating with too much roller tension, then reducing the tension without recalibrating).

nsidirop
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by nsidirop » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:21 pm

More people recording that Genius overestimates power compared to Bushido, take a look at the last reply (Jan 10th 2014) in this thread

viewtopic.php?f=15&t=17687

shadowmate
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Re: brake type in bikenet

Post by shadowmate » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:19 pm

I just tried something today . I calibrated properly and warmed up accordingly. I then unpaired the speed cadence amd power sensors to see what the figures were like and I have to say, the speed was a little slower than the garmin was displaying (upto 0.5 mph). However the power was WWAAAAYYYYY off! I was 240 on the garmin (from the powermeter) and the brake was giving 370! How crappy! I then put the scalefactor to 90% which seemed to corralte with the garmin. I cant believe it was that far out.

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