Neo power VS Stages

Anything about Power (watts)

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kshin
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Neo power VS Stages

Post by kshin » Sun Nov 08, 2015 12:01 am

I've posted something similar in a reply on the hardware forum but here goes,

The resistance vs wattage in my Neo seems to be way off.
To be sure ip put my stages crank on my training bike to check the values.
And while TTS display for instance 150 watts, my garmin (which displayed the stages data) read 200 ...
After testing for quite a bit m and also check left peddaling only (to make sure i dont have a bizarre 60 / 40 balance)
ive come to the conclusion that the NEO seems to be off for 40 to 60 watts ...

I think i'm gonna have to trade it in.
Anyone else experience this behaviour?

geca
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by geca » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:48 am

I have also noticed to low wattage on my Neo. When I do training sessions on my Neo and compare them with similar trainings sessions done with Tacx Genius I had higher values on my avg Watt doing exactly the same routes in the same time. Furthermore I noticed that I had to put a lot more effort in doing those training within the same time as done on the Genius. (My health and fitness is the same now as it was when I rode the Genius). Actually I mean that Neo.s wattage is about 40-45 Watt to low and at the same time you need to push a lot harder to keep up the same speed as In the Real World. Ex. 35 Km/h on flat will only be about 150 Watt on my Neo, (Bodyweight 68 kg). I guess it should be around 195-200 Watt.
Also it is anoying/frustrating if you want to do MP.sessions where you will not have a chance with non Neo racers :evil:
PS: Firmware installed is updated to 0.32/0.21 0.42
Last edited by geca on Fri Nov 20, 2015 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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ms6073
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:29 am

I believe there have been two firmware updates released for the Neo since its releass. So have the two of you installed the latestTacx Utility app from the iTunes store and updated the latest firmware?
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AE68
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by AE68 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 9:55 am

EXACT same issue with the latest model Neo. Came from the i-genius and 'upgraded' to the Neo to loose app. 20% of my power. I can't ride with the people I used to ride with on Zwift since i simply cannot keep up with them.

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Tacx Video Production
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Tacx Video Production » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:17 am

Remember the stages is a crank based PM measuring just one leg where almost every rider from top pro to beginner has one leg stronger then the other....& the Neo is at the end of the drive chain like a Powertap, its completely correct that Neo power will be a little lower then crank power, its the same comparing a SRM to a powertap...should be about a 15-20watt difference which is the lost post power dissipated into crankset, the chain, jockey wheels, chain rings, freehub...50watts seems a bit high though.

If you have a Stages Powertap SRM or any Ant+ power meter then TTS can use these watts for your virtual speed calculation, data etc normally.

AE68
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by AE68 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:10 pm

Makes sense and I didn't expect the values (i-genius, stages, neo) to be 100% matching. but as you said, loosing 50watts over night is quite a bit. It cannot be the firmware since I am running the most recent version.

If this cannot be fixed, I'd rather stay with my i-genius and send the Neo back. Too bad.

tnc1970
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by tnc1970 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:42 pm

AE68 wrote:Makes sense and I didn't expect the values (i-genius, stages, neo) to be 100% matching. but as you said, loosing 50watts over night is quite a bit. It cannot be the firmware since I am running the most recent version.

If this cannot be fixed, I'd rather stay with my i-genius and send the Neo back. Too bad.
Well, I guess that this depends on what you're considering as the true measure. As TacxVideoProduction said, Stages measures just left leg power and multiplies by 2. This means that Stages might not be representing the real power you're putting on the bike.
I made some test on my Neo and Stages combo and, so far and in my particular case, Neo averages:
- 15% higher than Stages at 100/140 watts
- 4% higher than Stages at 290/300 watts (my FTP)
- 3% higher than Stages at 330 watts
Does that mean that Neo is spot on? or may be Stages?...I have no clue. Also, leg inbalance changes depending on the power and effort.

My suggestion would be to make your test in an interval workout at different zones so you can indentify how the pattern goes for you and then, make the adjustments to the workout target power.
And, for God sake... remember that those toys have around +-2% precision and we are combining several of them (not to mention drivetrain losses and other variables). Seeking absolute precision may be as futile as seeking an unicorn. A blue and pink one. :wink:

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by larsfn » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:55 pm

Tacx Video Production wrote:Remember the stages is a crank based PM measuring just one leg where almost every rider from top pro to beginner has one leg stronger then the other....& the Neo is at the end of the drive chain like a Powertap, its completely correct that Neo power will be a little lower then crank power, its the same comparing a SRM to a powertap...should be about a 15-20watt difference which is the lost post power dissipated into crankset, the chain, jockey wheels, chain rings, freehub...50watts seems a bit high though.

If you have a Stages Powertap SRM or any Ant+ power meter then TTS can use these watts for your virtual speed calculation, data etc normally.
I also feel the NEO power readings to be quite low compared to reading from other sources, though I have not quantified it in any ways. I do know my left-right balance to be quite near 50-50 (I have a Quarq Specialized PM) so I would not put too much emphasize on that. What I would emphasize is two things:

1. I also come from the iGenius and here the power readings (now, even also including the additional tyre loss !) seemed consistently higher (in the 30-50 Watts ball park I would say) and "more realistic" - so the NEO observation is not only due to drive-train loss

2. Maybe TTS4 should provide a feature to configure a calibration "offset" to compensate measuring the power at brake vs. measuring with a PM at crank. But I'm not sure the loss function expressing this "offset" is as simple as just adding a constant - say "just add 40 Watts to any reading": It may be a more complex function of the Watt reading (say A * Watts + B or whatever)
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ms6073
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:52 pm

Tacx Video Production wrote:lost post power dissipated into crankset, the chain, jockey wheels, chain rings, freehub...
For a reasonably maintained drive train, I think losses should be ~3%-4% total loss, so 50-watts is entirely to large of a discrepancy.
Tacx Video Production wrote:If you have a Stages Powertap SRM or any Ant+ power meter, then TTS can use these watts for your virtual speed calculation, data etc.
All the complex algorithms to account for the real world variables are lost on us when TTS thinks it is commanding brake resistance of 200-watts, yet an external powermeter is reading 300+ watts!
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Re: Neo power VS Stages VS SRM

Post by Nigmose » Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:09 am

Bought my Neo Ferruary 9, 2016 from Echalon Cycles in Pershore UK, which came with the latest firmware installed.

From my observations having covered some 60+ miles (96+ Km) the Neo reported power on my iPhone closely matches those powers reported by my SRM powered cranks on my Garmin 1000, so happy.

Further the cadence values agree, the only issue is speed for which I've no idea what wheel size the Neo is using but is of no consequence, but can easily estimate if I felt the need.

Pedalsndirt
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Pedalsndirt » Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:48 pm

I'll chime in on this one also. Compared to my Calibrated PowerTap C1 I get a power discrepancy of 30-50 watts lower on my Tacx Neo. Any word on implenting calibration or a firmeware upgrade on the Neo? Sure paid a ton of money for a piece of equipment that can't do the most basic function for which it was purchased for.

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ms6073
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:32 pm

Pedalsndirt wrote:I get a power discrepancy of 30-50 watts lower on my Tacx Neo.
I do not think such functionality is currently on Tacx's radar. While there have been numerous reports of such power discrepancies, since I updated to the latest firmware, the watts reported by my SRM during watt-time efforts were within 3-5 watts of what the NEO reports to TTS. Best I can say, if your Neo is not performing to your expectations, then it is time to contact the seller to arrange for an exchange or send an email to support@tacx.com to open a support ticket for the issue.
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Pedalsndirt
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Pedalsndirt » Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:25 pm

ms6073 wrote:
Pedalsndirt wrote:I get a power discrepancy of 30-50 watts lower on my Tacx Neo.
I do not think such functionality is currently on Tacx's radar. While there have been numerous reports of such power discrepancies, since I updated to the latest firmware, the watts reported by my SRM during watt-time efforts were within 3-5 watts of what the NEO reports to TTS. Best I can say, if your Neo is not performing to your expectations, then it is time to contact the seller to arrange for an exchange or send an email to support@tacx.com to open a support ticket for the issue.
Yeah, I have already done so. Thanks for responding. :D

Haggis77
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Haggis77 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 2:03 pm

Pedalsndirt wrote:I'll chime in on this one also. Compared to my Calibrated PowerTap C1 I get a power discrepancy of 30-50 watts lower on my Tacx Neo. Any word on implenting calibration or a firmeware upgrade on the Neo? Sure paid a ton of money for a piece of equipment that can't do the most basic function for which it was purchased for.
I have been using a new Powertap C1 for the last few months and have just moved to the Tacx Neo from the Genius.
My Neo\C1 setup is very accurate, around 5 watts out (1%). Very impressed with the accuracy so far.

The Genius\C1 setup would always be around 10-20 watts out (7%). With the C1 reporting higher watts than the Genius. Still accurate and acceptable. However, on one occasion i did overtighten the C1 rings to the Crankset, the watts from the C1 were about 50 higher than the Genius.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Mon Jun 20, 2016 3:22 pm

Haggis77 wrote:The Genius\C1 setup would always be around 10-20 watts out (7%).
Really like how easy it is to train with the Neo compared to our old trainers. Prior to the Neo, we had a pair of legacy Tacx Bushido trainers and on average, typically saw Bushido power output within 4-7 watts of our SRM's. Problem was that since it was a rear wheel drive trainer, the feel of inertia was no where near as good as what we now 'feel' riding on the Neo. Also, at the beginning of a training session with the Bushido, we always started out with a 7-10 minute warm-up as power output was typically on the high side of target power, but would gradually fall off to just below target power by the time we started a 'warm down' at the end of the session. Also, since our bikes came off the trainer for outdoor riding each weekend, once a month or so, I usually had to set aside 20-30 minutes to ensure we had correct calibrations with TTS & the Bushido.
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Izza
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Izza » Mon Nov 28, 2016 10:53 pm

I'm getting a similar drop in power figures on my Neo.

I ran the NEO transmitting power figures to an ipad via wahoo dongle at the same time the dual sided Quarq Elsa power meter sent power to my Garmin. It generally shows a difference in the region of 25W at 150W and 30W at 220W.

When I use it with Fulgaz, I find that slopes I would go up on my bike at about 10km/h, I am only able to go up at 6km/h. This makes for very hard training sessions as mountain stages are taking 20 minutes longer than I expected.

Zwift not yet on ipad but friends I train with in the real world with comparable speeds are quoting numbers 35% higher than me at the moment and as such, don't think Ill bother unless I can get the Quarq figures into Zwift rather than the Neo ones.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by raceface_lefty » Sun Jan 15, 2017 5:54 pm

I don't have a power meter but comparing to my old fortuis trainer my FTP is off by closed to 20%.

In real life I have a hill near home, I ride it in just under 7 minutes. Same profile in TTS4 on the Fortius was close to 7 minutes. On the NEO I really have to go very very hard to ride it in 8:30.

I know the wattage is irrelevant in the greater scheme of thing as I just adjust my workouts downwards to ride catalyst at lower watts.

But it's not good for morale and ego.
If you don't fall you're going too slow.

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ms6073
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:59 pm

As soneone who has migrated from Tacx Fortius to Bushido to Neo Smart, my take is that the Neo is more accurate in maintaining specified resistance levels,
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by raceface_lefty » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:52 pm

NEO is a huge improvement on Fortius in response and consistency. I just have to adjust all my workouts to lower the watts to I can complete them rather than hitting the wall halfway through.

I might take the opportunity to move my extensive range of workouts to relative power based on FTP now available in TTS4. Rather than static watts as I have used for the past 12 years.
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Balrog » Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm

ms6073 wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:59 pm
As soneone who has migrated from Tacx Fortius to Bushido to Neo Smart, my take is that the Neo is more accurate in maintaining specified resistance levels,
I'm debating upgrading from Fortius - do you miss the motorbrake?

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