Neo power VS Stages

Anything about Power (watts)

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ms6073
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Balrog wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm
I'm debating upgrading from Fortius - do you miss the motorbrake?
Not one single bit. No need to swap wheels, inflate trainer tires, futz with calibrations, just plug in the Neo, plug in the ANT+ antenna and Fortius handlebar conbtroller, start TTS, ride! Cadence on my trainer at lower resistance levels seems to be a bit more stochastic than the Fortius or Busido, and ironically, the WIfe's Neo positoned right next to mine has super smooth cadence, but the resistance curve is much more stable and quicker to trainsition between route segments during Watt-Time or Slope-Time Catalyst workouts.
Last edited by ms6073 on Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by thebigoneinfront » Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:26 pm

Made the step from Fortius to Genius to Neo as well and couldn't agree more. The Neo has a motorbrake as well!

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Balrog » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:18 am

ms6073 wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:23 pm
Balrog wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm
I'm debating upgrading from Fortius - do you miss the motorbrake?
Not one single bit. No need to swap wheels, inflate trainer tires, futz with calibrations, just plug in the Neo, plug in the ANT+ antenna and Fortius handlebar conbtroller, start TTS, ride! Cadence on my trainer at lower resistance levels seems to be a bit more stochastic than the Fortius or Busido, and ironically, the WIfe's Neo positoned right next to mine has super smooth cadence, but the resistance curve is much more stable and quicker to trainsition between route segments during Watt-Time or Slope-Time Catalyst workouts.
I'm inclined to take each point. I don't use special anything for rear wheel - I tried the blue Tacx tire and found it to be wanting in major categories - noise, wear, traction. So for me the logistics of setting up on the Fortius would be on par with Neo.
So you're seeing some randomness at lower cadences on one Neo?
I'm concerned with what appears to be the luck of the draw between your two Neos. That's not exactly a selling point. Giving Tacx the benefit of a doubt, is there any significant difference between the supporting computer systems?

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Balrog » Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:23 am

thebigoneinfront wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 8:26 pm
Made the step from Fortius to Genius to Neo as well and couldn't agree more. The Neo has a motorbrake as well!
I see. I missed that in the docs and/or Tacx website. For some reason their site rubs me the wrong way.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 1:20 pm

Balrog wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2017 3:18 am
So you're seeing some randomness at lower cadences on one Neo?
I
Actually that is probbaly due to my pedaling style on the trainer as my wife pedals in the 87-92 rpm range whereas I am pedaling 95-105 range. I had an issue with the first 2016 model Neo and Tacx replaced it last October with a 2017 model and see the exact same jagged cadence below ~170-180 watts. Last night I swapped my bike to her Neo and gave it a short spin in TTS and observed the same results so it is definitely more related to my biomechanics than a deficiency with the Neo.
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Balrog » Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:52 pm

Interesting. Does the way Neo rides result in a higher cadence than Fortius? I typically spin in the 60's, mushing along much like outside. I ride distance/casual, 21-23MPH on a good day. It sounds to me like 90+ under load is getting towards the upper design limits of the Neo.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:00 am

Balrog wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:52 pm
Does the way Neo rides result in a higher cadence than Fortius?
Not at all. Simply a by-product of 30-years of road and cyclocross racing.
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by malfukt » Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:08 am

Balrog wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm
ms6073 wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:59 pm
As soneone who has migrated from Tacx Fortius to Bushido to Neo Smart, my take is that the Neo is more accurate in maintaining specified resistance levels,
I'm debating upgrading from Fortius - do you miss the motorbrake?

NEO has motorbrake when plugged into mains...ie: powered downhill just as fortius
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Balrog » Thu Jan 19, 2017 6:15 am

malfukt wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:08 am
Balrog wrote:
Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:30 pm
ms6073 wrote:
Sun Jan 15, 2017 8:59 pm
As soneone who has migrated from Tacx Fortius to Bushido to Neo Smart, my take is that the Neo is more accurate in maintaining specified resistance levels,
I'm debating upgrading from Fortius - do you miss the motorbrake?

NEO has motorbrake when plugged into mains...ie: powered downhill just as fortius
Thanks. For some reason it wasn't apparent to me in the website.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by thebigoneinfront » Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:22 am

Balrog wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:52 pm
It sounds to me like 90+ under load is getting towards the upper design limits of the Neo.
Unlike the Fortius, the Neo detects cadence by measuring power fluctuations over your pedalling cycle. This way, pedalling style can somewhat influence the measurement and on downhills, where the motor powers more than your pedalling, the cadence numbers are arbitrary. If you prefer more solid numbers, you can put an ANT+ cadence sensor on your bike and connect it to TTS. (I have a Garmin GSC-10 cadence/speed sensor. Those combined sensors work only for cadence, not for speed in TTS.) Overall, I don't think there is a design limit of the Neo that limits cadence, I think it's just the effect of the cadence detection.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Balrog » Thu Jan 19, 2017 1:22 pm

thebigoneinfront wrote:
Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:22 am
Balrog wrote:
Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:52 pm
It sounds to me like 90+ under load is getting towards the upper design limits of the Neo.
Unlike the Fortius, the Neo detects cadence by measuring power fluctuations over your pedalling cycle. This way, pedalling style can somewhat influence the measurement and on downhills, where the motor powers more than your pedalling, the cadence numbers are arbitrary. If you prefer more solid numbers, you can put an ANT+ cadence sensor on your bike and connect it to TTS. (I have a Garmin GSC-10 cadence/speed sensor. Those combined sensors work only for cadence, not for speed in TTS.) Overall, I don't think there is a design limit of the Neo that limits cadence, I think it's just the effect of the cadence detection.
Biking is a kaleidoscope of standards. Bottom brackets, pedals, tires, spokes, headsets, groupsets, and so on... Somehow I expected less of the same with communications and sensors. Tacx upped the quality of the trainer, which in turn exposes the quirks in sensors & communications protocols. I'm already running other stuff with ANT+, so I'm golden.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by raceface_lefty » Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:31 pm

Being on the NEO compared to the Fortuis is like riding a modern bike with carbon wheels, tubeless tyres and electronic shifting that weighs 6.8kg compared to a 26" hybrid with knobbly tyres.

It's a no brainer it is that good.
If you don't fall you're going too slow.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by strouja » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:45 pm

Here is my experience, I had a Tacx Bushido for about 5 years and for the last two years ridden with Stages Power Meter. Before all of my indoor rides I would calibrate both (get the Bushido close to 12.5) and Stages to a reading with the left crank arm at 6 o'clock. My reading for the Stages and Bushido were eerily in synch. After a 1 or 2 hour ride they were always really close in both avg and normalized power in watts, say 220 vs 222, or 240 vs 241, or even on my harder workouts 272 vs 270 or so. So I was very pleased with this.

Now I got the Neo and my power on the Neo was consistently 10 to 20 watts lower when I started hitting 180 watts or so. I always have the latest firmware on both Stages and Neo. So I was really puzzled. This went on for weeks and then I read this thread. I got the idea to take off my jockey wheels and clean them thoroughly and clean the drive train and lube it with rock-n-roll gold (It was not lubed in a week or so), this helped slightly as the discrepancy on average for 60 min to 90 min ride is now 10 to 15 watts with the Neo being lower. Then I decided maybe take out the bottom bracket and clean that out too (so I found several youtube videos and did that), but my bottom bracket once removed was in good shape and not that dirty. So my power discrepancies are still off by 10 to 15 watts. For example just the other day I did the trainerRoad Arrow workout and on Stages 257 watts for Normalized power vs. 242 on Stages, and 243 for avg power on Stages vs 223 watts on Neo. On TrainerRoad I was in Erg mode.
Once in a while now the discrepancy goes back to 20 watts

I also have similar results when using zwift when zwift controls the neo. I also have similar results using TrainerRoad in non-erg mode. It also does not matter if I have the Neo plugged into an electrical wall outlet or not. Sometimes I bring the Neo to my kids soccer practice and get a training ride in in a secluded area that has no electricity. My Neo is always lower than my Stages. Even when riding I put both my garmin 520 which gets a reading from my stages - to read 3 second avg power, and Zwift to read 3 second averages from the neo and then it is easy to see in real-time how Neo is usually lower than Stages.

I don't know what to make of it, I'm coming to the conclusion that my Stages Power is just too high, but I'm not 100% convinced b/c my Stages was always aligned with my Bushido that I no longer use.

So if I'm using the neo and want to power based workouts I have to use a lower value for my FTP and then my workouts are then more achievable. I found that I could not even complete some of the power based workouts on the Neo if I used what I thought was my FTP as taken from a test using Stages, I have to use a lower value of what my Neo has my FTP at.
James Stroud - Oakton, Virginia USA

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:08 pm

Seems to me that you should set TrainerRoad and Zwift to use your Stages as the power input to control the Neo. As an SRM owner, I set the zero-offset prior to each ride, but I also check/set the slope of my SRM about 2-3 times per year and the Neo has never been more than 2-3 watts off. Is that an option with the Stages? If not, then either the Neo or the Stages is not operating correctly and I would suspect the Stages before the Tacx.
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by thebigoneinfront » Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:08 pm

Titaniumgeek doesn't (yet?) have DCRainmaker's reputation, but still made it to a Tacx factory tour described here http://www.titaniumgeek.com/gear-review ... #more-7265
There's a piece on Neo accuracy included, said to be claimed at 0.02% below 100 W, 0.18 % at 344 W (no idea why that odd number) and 1 % at 1500+ W. Stating the 1% accuracy overall was a marketing decision because that's the number at the Neo's claimed 2000 W max power and everyone loves trainers with high W specs.

I believe that it's easier to measure power more precisely somewhere at the Neo's motor than on a crank, so I tend to side with the Neo.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by ms6073 » Fri Mar 03, 2017 3:41 pm

thebigoneinfront wrote:
Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:08 pm
It's easier to measure power more precisely somewhere at the Neo's motor than on a crank, so I tend to side with the Neo.
Exactly my point. From my perspective, while hardly a definitive analysis, but based on the number of comments I have seen on forums such as Slowtwitch, WW, and Google Wattage group regarding the variability/precision of Stages powermeters, I would say that if an external powermeter is not matching up with the Neo's power output, then realistically one should first investigate the powermeters accuracy, then if that fails to resolve the issue, replace the Neo!
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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Cervelovan » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:01 am

Tacx Video Production wrote:
Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:17 am
Remember the stages is a crank based PM measuring just one leg where almost every rider from top pro to beginner has one leg stronger then the other....& the Neo is at the end of the drive chain like a Powertap, its completely correct that Neo power will be a little lower then crank power, its the same comparing a SRM to a powertap...should be about a 15-20watt difference which is the lost post power dissipated into crankset, the chain, jockey wheels, chain rings, freehub...50watts seems a bit high though.

If you have a Stages Powertap SRM or any Ant+ power meter then TTS can use these watts for your virtual speed calculation, data etc normally.
I just purchased the TACX Flux this past weekend and have done two rides. My Stages wattage on my Garmin EDGE 1000 is pretty much bang on to the Wattage I see on Zwift through the Flux. The problem I am having is that 185W using ERG on Zwift with the FLUX is WAY harder than without ERG and harder than all the workouts I did on my Kurt Kinetic on Trainer Road for years now.

Today I tried to do a SweetSpot workout on Zwift which means that elevation does not matter it's keep 185W for 40 minutes. I could barely do 10. (Full disclosure: I fractured my pelvis in July in 3 places so very unfit)

I'm wondering if the way the bike is placed on the cassette that it's not exactly aligned as you would do with your wheels, but I see several people complain about having to work much harder to achieve certain wattages.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by LulaNord » Tue May 02, 2017 5:32 pm

Hi...i am a new user here. In my case I had to put a lot more effort in doing those training within the same time as done on the Genius. Actually I mean that Neo.s wattage is about 40-45 Watt to low and at the same time you need to push a lot harder to keep up the same speed as In the Real World.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by MalMac65 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:46 am

Slightly old thread I know but I'm having issues with my Neo reporting 15w less power (did some cross referencing tests with Neo/Garmin/Zwift/Quarq) at ranges between 150-300w than my Quarq. Not only that but as soon as I got my Neo it immediately "felt" harder than my previous setup and this was reflected in an FTP test which resulted in me dropping from 277w down to 257w in the space of a month. During that month outdoors I have broken pr's on every climb I've been doing for the past 4 years with my Quarq reporting 20min power of 285w for these climbs so it's not me going downhill. Even 15w at my lowly FTP means the difference between going into the red zone or not so it's not acceptable in my opinion. I'm in the process of putting in a ticket with Tacx but I'm not holding my breath. I've watched video of Shane Miller on You tube with Quarq vs Neo and they've been really close so maybe something wrong with mine :( Too many people posting about this subject for it not to be a real issue with the Neo....unfortunately...it's an awesome piece of kit. Just needs this fixed or an option to calibrate it to your outdoor power meter option.

NB - before people say anything. No I can't use the Quarq to control the Neo because I use a different bike on the Neo which doesn't have a PM. Further to that I shouldn't have to use another PM when I paid for an "accurate" one built into the trainer.

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Re: Neo power VS Stages

Post by Revelin » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:23 am

Hi All,

Been reading through this thread and finding I get very similar issues, I have updated and calibrated all the firmware to both my Stages and Tacx Neo.
The Stages reads higher by 10-30watts to my Tacx Neo around the 250 to 320watt range. Definitely find the tacx neo workouts a lot harder than on the road while doing intervals with the same power numbers on the stages.

There is a new Firmware update for the Tacx Neo have not tried since this update has anyone seen improvements?


I have Quarq power meter too so might do some tests next week with all 3 meters.


cheers for the comments

rev

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