Satori Smart Calibration Issues

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stuie016
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Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by stuie016 » Mon Nov 05, 2018 2:26 pm

All of a sudden, after no issues previously my 18 month old Satori Smart will not calibrate.

When i try to calibrate through either the Tacx Utility or Tacx Traing Apps when i begin to pedel the registered speed climbs to 30km/h without me barely turning the pedels. This began a month or so ago on the Training app but worked fine on the Utility app.

I have re booted my phone, turned bluetooth off and on again and also channged the batteries in the trainer. Utility app states firmware is upto date (Version 0.5.4).

I am about to fling the damn thing onto the road shortly. :x :x :x

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by mcorn » Mon Nov 05, 2018 4:24 pm

Have you contacted support@tacx.com?

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Alex Masalovich
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:00 pm

Oh, these new versions:
Tacx utility app - 2.0.6 (Updated October 29, 2018)
Tacx Training app - 3.3.5 (Updated October 17, 2018)

Try calibration in another application - Tacx Cycling app that was last updated in August.

Or download and install old versions of applications from here:
https://apps.evozi.com/apk-downloader/
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:00 pm
Oh, these new versions:
Tacx utility app - 2.0.6 (Updated October 29, 2018)
Tacx Training app - 3.3.5 (Updated October 17, 2018)

Try calibration in another application - Tacx Cycling app that was last updated in August.

Or download and install old versions of applications from here:
https://apps.evozi.com/apk-downloader/
I have the same problem as topic starter does. Didn't use my Satori starting from April 2018, only updated Tacx Utility, when new version appeared in Google Play.

Alex Masalovich, when you suggest to try things, did you try any of your suggestions or you just guessing? "Had you try to turn it off and on again three times? " (c)

So results of my tests. Tacx Satori Smart, firmware 0.5.4

Tacx Utility v1.7.1 apk (got by link provided above by Alex Masalovich) - Failed. Doesn't connects with trainer.

Tacx Cycling app - latest version from Google Play. Calibration failed. Speed in app approximately in 2 times bigger then real one measured by external ATN+ sensor and cycling computer with correct wheel size. So in app trainer reaches 30km/h when real speed is about 15-16km/h.

Tacx Utility v2.0.5 and v2.0.6 (latest public release). Calibration failed. Both have absolutely the same problem as Tacx Cycling app.

Tacx Utility v1.8.13 apk - Calibration works. Speed measurement looks much more relistic.
I did try to connect trainer directly to cycling computer and measure speed in Utility running on phone as well. In both cases speed broadcasted by trainer is the same, but always lower on ~2..2.2km/h then speed, measured by external ANT+ sensor. I checked it several times to be sure. 2km/h seems not too much, but it's 6.66%, so i do not know... Maybe trainer lies, maybe does not. I may need to re-check carefully wheel size to be sure on 100%.

Question to Tacx Support: guys, seriously? With all that "smartness" of trainers you turning them back to dumb by such application updates. It's real PITA when trainer depends on calibration which more looks like geek quest. Please can you start to fix that? Instead 1 hour on indoor cycling i spent more 2 hours doing tests.
Now I can't even get rid of my "smart" trainer becouse have to explain somehow to next owner why he need to get and install manually old version of Utility app and keep it. Tacx Cycling app still useless at all.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:04 pm

rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
Alex Masalovich, when you suggest to try things, did you try any of your suggestions or you just guessing? "Had you try to turn it off and on again three times? " (c)
Yes, I offer only the direction of finding a solution.
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
So results of my tests. Tacx Satori Smart, firmware 0.5.4
Thank you for testing. This will help other users.
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
Tacx Utility v1.8.13 apk - Calibration works.
Do you have an apk file? Please post it in the open access.
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
Speed measurement looks much more relistic.
I did try to connect trainer directly to cycling computer and measure speed in Utility running on phone as well. In both cases speed broadcasted by trainer is the same, but always lower on ~2..2.2km/h then speed, measured by external ANT+ sensor. I checked it several times to be sure. 2km/h seems not too much, but it's 6.66%, so i do not know... Maybe trainer lies, maybe does not. I may need to re-check carefully wheel size to be sure on 100%.
It is possible that the differences are caused by virtual speed:
https://support.tacx.com/hc/en-us/artic ... tual-speed
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
Question to Tacx Support: guys, seriously? With all that "smartness" of trainers you turning them back to dumb by such application updates. It's real PITA when trainer depends on calibration which more looks like geek quest. Please can you start to fix that? Instead 1 hour on indoor cycling i spent more 2 hours doing tests.
Now I can't even get rid of my "smart" trainer becouse have to explain somehow to next owner why he need to get and install manually old version of Utility app and keep it. Tacx Cycling app still useless at all.
Remarks are fair, but there is no Tacx Support here.
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by mcorn » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:38 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:04 pm
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
Question to Tacx Support: guys, seriously? With all that "smartness" of trainers you turning them back to dumb by such application updates. It's real PITA when trainer depends on calibration which more looks like geek quest. Please can you start to fix that? Instead 1 hour on indoor cycling i spent more 2 hours doing tests.
Now I can't even get rid of my "smart" trainer becouse have to explain somehow to next owner why he need to get and install manually old version of Utility app and keep it. Tacx Cycling app still useless at all.
Remarks are fair, but there is no Tacx Support here.
As we keep saying over and over again, Tacx does not reliably monitor everything on this user forum. If you want Tacx Support to hear something, send an email to support@tacx.com

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:28 am

Alex Masalovich wrote: Do you have an apk file? Please post it in the open access.
Yes, i do. Got several APKs in few different public sources and made binary comparison of 'em to have at least minimal assurance about authenticity since i haven't right control sum.
Can't attach it here due to file size limitations :-/ Ouch.
Well, one of possible sources: https://apkpure.com/tacx-utility/tacx.android.utility Pls scroll page down and you'll see.
Alex Masalovich wrote: It is possible that the differences are caused by virtual speed:
https://support.tacx.com/hc/en-us/artic ... tual-speed
Virtual Speed is that the application being used is displaying a different speed (Virtual Speed) compared to the actual speed of the rear wheel, in the situation where the track being simulated is outperforming the indoor trainer. The difference in speed is based on a calculation taking all performance and resistance factors in account (e.g. gradient, speed, inertia, air resistance etc.). This allows the cyclist to simulate a track that is outperforming his indoor trainer.
Note: Virtual Speed is being calculated in the application. Not all applications are provided with this feature
As I told before value of speed broadcasted by ANT+ to cycling computer was the same as value of speed in Tacx Utility. So remembering that "Virtual Speed is being calculated in the application" we can say: virtual speed have nothing with mentioned 6-7% speed discrepancy.
It's also simple logical, becouse speeding on trainer for calibration with minimal loading doesn't looks like simulation of anything but ride on flat surface only.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by WillyCycles » Thu Nov 08, 2018 4:48 am

I had the exact same thing happen to me today. It was working fine all week. When I went to calibrate this afternoon, the Utility and TacX apps were displaying a speed that was erratic and about twice my actual tire speed as measured by my sensors. Strangely, in the Tacx app, cadence was right on compared to my sensor, and power was in the ballpark it seemed (no powermeter). I don’t understand why this would randomly happen today, because I don’t believe there were any updates or firmware changes in the past 24-48 hours. This post was the only one expressing the same problem I had, on pretty much the same day. That can’t be coincidence, so something happened with either the firmware or the apps.

If anyone finds a permanent solution please share. I will report to Satori’s support team.

Also, I’m have Apple products so the solution above won’t do anything for me.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Thu Nov 08, 2018 10:21 am

rollo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:28 am
Well, one of possible sources: https://apkpure.com/tacx-utility/tacx.android.utility Pls scroll page down and you'll see.
Great find! Thanks a lot! Thus, users of Android devices can use these application archives:
Tacx utility app: https://apkpure.com/tacx-utility/tacx.android.utility
Tacx Training app: https://apkpure.com/tacx-training/tacx.android
Tacx Cycling app: https://apkpure.com/tacx-cycling-app/co ... acxcycling
rollo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:28 am
As I told before value of speed broadcasted by ANT+ to cycling computer was the same as value of speed in Tacx Utility. So remembering that "Virtual Speed is being calculated in the application" we can say: virtual speed have nothing with mentioned 6-7% speed discrepancy.
It's also simple logical, becouse speeding on trainer for calibration with minimal loading doesn't looks like simulation of anything but ride on flat surface only.
I agree with your logic, but keep in mind that the speed in the application from Tacx is always virtual speed:
Keep in mind speed shown in TCA is also NOT the raw speed from the trainer. It's always calculated with the same virtual speed calculations but not flagged as virtual speed cause it's less than 10% deviation from the RAW speed of the trainer.

Measured speed from a sensor is treated as raw speed.

viewtopic.php?f=213&t=25258
And what do we know about the calculations in your cycling computer?
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:10 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote: And what do we know about the calculations in your cycling computer?
Hehe :) We know a lot. There's formula: S = L / t, where L is length of wheel measured several times on floor and t is time of one turn of wheel. BTW i already tried two diff computers (Bryton and Giant) and 2 diff ANT+ combo sensors (Bontranger and Motorola), so experiment kinda clean :wink: Clocks in both computers aren't atomic, but they doesn't drift on 5 mins even per half of year. I can say that becouse do not use GPS there.
Also, easy to see: if L=2000mm then 2km/h of speed difference means L=1875mm. I would say that 25mm is too big and impossible mistake for that kind of measurements.

App gives us virtual speed, sure thing. That's why we experiencing problem. Wondering if there's one shared library which does that in Tacx Utility and TCA as well across both mobile platforms.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:24 pm

Speaking of calculations in your cycling computer, I meant something else:
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
I did try to connect trainer directly to cycling computer and measure speed in Utility running on phone as well. In both cases speed broadcasted by trainer is the same
For me, this remains a mystery. Does your cycling computer also calculate virtual speed?
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:33 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote: For me, this remains a mystery. Does your cycling computer also calculate virtual speed?
That was about 2km/h discrepancy, do you rememeber? Cycling computer was used as part of proof. Example:
External ANT+ sensor --> Cycling Computer (Bryton & Giant): 22..22.5km/h
Satori Trainer --> Cycling Computer (ANT+, SPD/CAD profile): 20km/h
Satori Trainer --> Tacx Utility App (Running on Android phone, Bluetooth): 20km/h

So looks like "virtual speed" in this case doesn't matter, app just doesn't implements it, since loading lever in position 1 (must be) and App assumes that fact. Trainer itself produces that unpleasant speed difference.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:47 pm

Was the same discrepancy until April 2018? Does this have any effect on the training process? Still, home trainer is an imitation of cycling.
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:32 am

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:47 pm
Was the same discrepancy until April 2018? Does this have any effect on the training process? Still, home trainer is an imitation of cycling.
I can't say exactly about April 2018. Can only guess. Last winter I rode with my friend head to head in BKool simulator, but he used completely different hardware. So normally after finishing stage together we had the same AVS. Still not sure about those 2km/h. And have no idea when last firmware update happened.

"Unpleasant" doesn't means "impossible to practice", I never meant that. But -6% is a lot if you doing say some virtual sprint in the bunch and working hard on 100%, as well as +6% is unfair advantage. Who doesn't likes precision for reasonable price? :wink:

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by WillyCycles » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:26 am

And all this further discussion is besides the point. Something obviously happened to the calibration system for Satoris in the last few days. There is no way it is coincidence that 3 of us reported the same exact problem within 2 days of each other, and no one had ever reported this problem online in the 2-3 years this product has been available as far as I can tell. Downloading some old version of software online is not a long term fix (what, is everyone going to have to turn off auto updates the apps from now on?), and this “fix” doesn’t work for Apple users (most people under 40). This problem essentially turns the product into a Low IQ Smart Trainer, as the power output is basically a guess because it can’t be calibrated properly. When you spend $300+ on something, it should work reliably for more than 2 weeks. Otherwise, we’d be better off saving $200 and buying a dumb trainer.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by mcorn » Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:27 am

WillyCycles wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:26 am
And all this further discussion is besides the point. Something obviously happened to the calibration system for Satoris in the last few days.
Which is why I urge every Satori Smart owner who is affected to send an email to support@tacx.com rather than wasting their energy complaining on this user forum, which may not be seen by Tacx.

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Fri Nov 09, 2018 10:40 am

mcorn wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:27 am
email to support@tacx.com
Or twitter: https://twitter.com/TacxSupport
There were no reports of new problems with the Satori calibration.
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by Alex Masalovich » Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:05 am

to rollo

I would like to make out a few more points:

1) You have the ability (albeit limited) to influence the trainer’s readings by changing the degree of roller pressure on the tire (without recalibration).

2) What wheel and tire have a circumference of 2000 mm?

3) I did not understand the arithmetic of your calculations:
rollo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 7:10 pm
Also, easy to see: if L=2000mm then 2km/h of speed difference means L=1875mm. I would say that 25mm is too big and impossible mistake for that kind of measurements.
I get other numbers:
22 km/h = 22000 m/h = 11000 turns/h * 2 m
20 km/h = 20000 m/h = 11000 turns/h * 1.818 m
That is, with a speed difference of 22–20 km/h, we have a difference in the length of the circumferences of 2000–1818 mm.

4) At what speed measurements were taken?
rollo wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 11:33 pm
External ANT+ sensor --> Cycling Computer (Bryton & Giant): 22..22.5km/h
Satori Trainer --> Cycling Computer (ANT+, SPD/CAD profile): 20km/h
Satori Trainer --> Tacx Utility App (Running on Android phone, Bluetooth): 20km/h
rollo wrote:
Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:31 am
2km/h seems not too much, but it's 6.66%
2km/h : 6.66% = 30.03 km/h
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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 7:09 pm

Alex Masalovich wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 11:05 am
to rollo

I would like to make out a few more points:

1) You have the ability (albeit limited) to influence the trainer’s readings by changing the degree of roller pressure on the tire (without recalibration).

2) What wheel and tire have a circumference of 2000 mm?

3) I did not understand the arithmetic of your calculations:

I get other numbers:
22 km/h = 22000 m/h = 11000 turns/h * 2 m
20 km/h = 20000 m/h = 11000 turns/h * 1.818 m
That is, with a speed difference of 22–20 km/h, we have a difference in the length of the circumferences of 2000–1818 mm.

4) At what speed measurements were taken?

2km/h : 6.66% = 30.03 km/h
Hi Alex! ;)

1) Can you please explain how it works IRL with examples. What changes i will get except real power i need to apply to cranks? BTW for me possible range of regulations is pretty tight there. Little more - and I'm out of "green area" of calibration. Little less and tire starts to sleep on roller.

2) 2000 was just round number for calcs. Real tire is 1960 mm (26" Tacx blue). I pretty sure about it. Re-measured by 2 diff ways. Method is precise enough.

3) You are right, my bad. And typo. Need to stop doing things at job :lol: Obviosly that difference even in my wrong cals is not 25 but 125mm. In your case even more. By any means 2km/h of diff can't be caused by wrong wheel size. That was initial point.

4) 30km/h, becouse we all time speaking about calibration. That's why 6.66% appeared. Actually i didn't try to compare diff on higher speed, but if difference grows with acceleration, that doesn't makes things better.

Anyway Tacx declared Satori Smart accuracy <10% , so 6% are within that range. No claims accepted 8)

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Re: Satori Smart Calibration Issues

Post by rollo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 9:06 pm

Just installed and tried new version of Tacx Utility - v2.0.6
Still doesn't works properly. Way off real. 60km/h on 163 Watts :lol:

Have no idea how to post image here and make it works, so just plain link https://photos.app.goo.gl/Y3wSDwDPU4j16SeS6

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