The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

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thebigoneinfront
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by thebigoneinfront » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:24 pm

mcorn wrote:The sleeves are fairly thin, so they should be easy to tap.
That's what I thought, but alas.... I've drilled the holes to the full diameter for the epoxy fix, so there is no material left to cut into without having to cut into the sleeve, too. It's fine for now, I'll see how long it lasts.

As the urethane won't hold much, I think just any sort of pin inserted together with some glue into the spindle holes could help. My idea was more that epoxy round the screw threads would take the load and the two threads or so that actually would sit in the sleeve would fix the sleeve well enough. Well, water under the bridge until I can cut those threads.... I'm spending more time in the gym now and will see whether that helps next time the Genius gets noisy. :lol:

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by mcorn » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:46 pm

Stainless steel is tough metal, so you may need high quality taps. Many inexpensive tap and die sets are only intended for chasing damaged threads rather than cutting new ones. I think most people have found that a solid epoxy plug without any metal at all is enough to keep the sleeve from moving. Countersinking the hole provides a larger gripping area.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by thebigoneinfront » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:09 pm

Low quality tools? Shoo! Not across my doorstep! Nah, this is down to that steel or me.... :roll:

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bigrichard
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by bigrichard » Thu Dec 11, 2014 12:28 pm

I only use quality tools too. All the taps I buy are good for cutting into stainless steel because I do use them for work and I do drill into stainless on machines and conveyors. I can't stand cheap tools that barely do the job once or not at all.
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by mcorn » Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:00 pm

Thread chasers are not necessarily junk tools, they just have a different purpose. I've worked with stainless a fair amount and it can be difficult to work with. Some stainless alloys are not particularly suitable for machining, including threading.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by brian » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:11 pm

Update
Original epoxy fix carried out Dec 2008, still working six years on. See page 3 Dec 06 for details.
Worked for me.
Serves me right for boasting! Mine started becoming noisy again a couple of weeks ago, each time I used it was a little worse than before, the wife noticed it this week, I'm in the garage and she heard it in the house!
Repeated the fix, drilled out on Saturday and refilled with Evo Stick standard 2 pack epoxy resin. filled each hole and poked epoxy in to remove air bubbles, ensured it was 'just' proud of the roller surface and then covered each hole with a bit of masking tape to keep epoxy in while filling remaining holes. Placed on radiator in the house to speed up setting time. Removed masking tape, cleaned off any surplus epoxy and refitted motor brake, warmed up 20 minutes and recalibrated without issue, noise gone.
Last edited by brian on Sun Jan 25, 2015 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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malfukt
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by malfukt » Fri Dec 12, 2014 10:55 pm

All this talk of taps & threads...this guys makes most of what he sells, ive been to him before..

read "info" menu on the left at the bottom

http://www.avontapdie.co.uk/taps

But in reality "epoxy" fine, have fixed 2 fortius, used for year or more afterward, sold on and know users, still going, still quiet
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by JaapW » Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:15 am

Small update from me. I did the epoxy fix end of September. Fortius was quiet again. However, the epoxy filling popped out of two of the 12 holes in the 2nd ride. A third one followed last week and it's back as loud as it was before the fix :? Complaints from the wife and everything :wink:

I can try to fix it again, but I doubt it'll solve the problem. I think I'll buy a spare part (the brake unit), which costs €100,- here. Then I have a spare brake unit and have some time to do a new and proper fix maybe with countersinking.

So, I guess my fix wasn't good enough (I did let it harden for 48 hours before riding).
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by mcorn » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:52 am

JaapW wrote:Small update from me. I did the epoxy fix end of September. Fortius was quiet again. However, the epoxy filling popped out of two of the 12 holes in the 2nd ride. A third one followed last week and it's back as loud as it was before the fix :? Complaints from the wife and everything :wink:

I can try to fix it again, but I doubt it'll solve the problem. I think I'll buy a spare part (the brake unit), which costs €100,- here. Then I have a spare brake unit and have some time to do a new and proper fix maybe with countersinking.

So, I guess my fix wasn't good enough (I did let it harden for 48 hours before riding).
I would try a different type of epoxy. Did you countersink the metal sleeve, which provides a large gripping area. Also, be sure everything is degreased before using epoxy. Use acetone, MEK, or lacquer thinner.

Also, I think much of the noise is simply the sound of air moving over the empty hole, so even putting a piece of tape over it might help quite a bit.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by ttelmah » Wed Dec 31, 2014 11:26 am

Generally, standard epoxies, won't stick to urethane at all well. There are special versions for bonding plastics. It's worth looking in the manufacturer's sheet for any glue you are thinking of using, and seeing if it specifically mentions polyurethane or urethane as materials it can bond. I have some I used a while ago, which was a two part Loctite construction adhesive, and I suspect the roller would fail before that comes off....

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by brian » Fri Jan 30, 2015 7:58 pm

I'm of the opinion that the 'fix' isn't about epoxy 'sticking' to urethane. Here's why...
When I was drilling out the old epoxy resin from my previous fix six years ago, I noticed two things, the edge of the epoxy where it was level with the surface of the roller sleeve had been damaged on all holes. Also, using a small drill as a pilot to drill out resulted in many of the epoxy fillings coming out with a short 3-4mm plug on the drill bit, indicating that the epoxy plug had cracked just below where the roller sleeve meets the urethane surface.
To me this indicated that the fix relies more on keeping the roller sleeve from moving rather than sticking it to the urethane. Once enough of the epoxy plugs had cracked, the roller sleeve began to move slightly, gradually wearing away the edge of the epoxy plug and allowing it to move even more until it reached a stage where it became noisy.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by malfukt » Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:06 pm

ttelmah wrote:Generally, standard epoxies, won't stick to urethane at all well. There are special versions for bonding plastics. It's worth looking in the manufacturer's sheet for any glue you are thinking of using, and seeing if it specifically mentions polyurethane or urethane as materials it can bond. I have some I used a while ago, which was a two part Loctite construction adhesive, and I suspect the roller would fail before that comes off....
I used ARALDITE a long while back, passed trainer on to my sister (both her & brother-in-law used it several times a week for rides of an hour or more..its still going strong)

http://www.adhesivehelp.com/araldite/araldite.html
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by waywardcyclist » Fri Jul 10, 2015 7:50 pm

What is the success rate of the Epoxy Fix with the Genius trainer? I know mcorn tried and apparently it failed after a few months. Does the sleeve and PU differ from the Fortius or are they the same?

My Genius is very loud (88db minimum while soft pedaling uphill, 102db max). The sleeve doesn't appear to be "loose" or rotating on the PU, but when I press down on the sleeve I hear a "pop" sound. This might indicate space under the sleeve and the deflection of the metal sleeve is causing the noise.

I can go ahead and try to drill and epoxy the holes, but would it make sense to try and get something under the sleeve in addition to the epoxy? Perhaps some high-temperature rated superglue?

The fact that this issue isn't covered by warranty or recall is disappointing.
Any Genius users out there?
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by waywardcyclist » Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:07 pm

I guess there isn't enough forum activity in the (northern hemisphere) summer to get a response so I took a deep breath an went ahead with the epoxy fix on the Genius. Fingers crossed.
I posted some nice step by step photos as I went along. Let me know if I interpreted this thread and the process correctly:
http://waywardcyclist.wordpress.com/201 ... s-trainer/
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by brian » Fri Jul 24, 2015 10:37 pm

waywardcyclist wrote:I guess there isn't enough forum activity in the (northern hemisphere) summer to get a response so I took a deep breath an went ahead with the epoxy fix on the Genius. Fingers crossed.
I posted some nice step by step photos as I went along. Let me know if I interpreted this thread and the process correctly:
http://waywardcyclist.wordpress.com/201 ... s-trainer/
From what I've seen you've got it right. The first time I repaired mine the same way it lasted 6 years!

You must have tried it by now, is it quieter? If so it worked for you too.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by Argon » Mon Aug 17, 2015 2:38 pm

Can someone post a video with the "noise" of a fixed Tacx Fortius?
I think that mine Tacx Fortius also makes a lot of noise, but I'm not sure... So before I do the fix, it should be fine to see/hear another Fortius :-)

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by raceface_lefty » Tue Aug 18, 2015 5:46 pm

After the fix all you hear is the chain as it goes through the RD and around the sprockets of the cluster. The brake unit is silent.
If you don't fall you're going too slow.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by LeeRobbo » Thu Jan 07, 2016 10:44 pm

I would like to chip in on this old thread with a little detail of a way to permanently fix this issue. I'm riding on the shoulders of giants here (OP 8) ) but just adding a little missing detail.
Basically, as we all know now, the Tacx design is poor and in reverse, i.e. if the sleeve had steel pins on the inside there wouldn't be any problem. Whether or not it's deliberate is also questionable... built-in lifespan :wink:
Anyway, however you look at it, exerting point force load on the spindle will without any shadow of a doubt eventually compress the urethane enough to allow rotational movement which will in turn snap the little spigots of urethane off.
The sleeve is 2mm SS and the distance to the centre axle is 14mm from the outer surface (12mm thick urethane)
The only way to ensure it never breaks again is to insert a stainless steel M4 grub screw after a little 24hr potting epoxy is dropped in the full bore hole. These are very cheap, very available and a 14mm screw will sit flush so you don't have to cut anything after... and they will look very pro!
For me, tapping the hole is not needed but if you want to do the max... tap the steel outer with a bigger size; M5 and screw in an m5 grub screw after a little epoxy.
I certainly agree with taping up everything and I also believe that taping over the screw and moving on to the next is a good idea also. If you use a long set epoxy it is very thin so seeps into the space under the sleeve IF the damage has got that bad. I will be doing this at the weekend with a Bushido spindle and will allow the epoxy to flow for 5 minutes for each pair before fitting the screw, taping over & rotating to the next. for the last 4 I will allow 10 minute a pair so it can seep into every space, topping up if needed. It really is like water for about 1 hour.
I have done carbon, aluminium and steel laminating/filling in the past and can recommend the slow but consistent approach.
Big thanks to all who have contributed on this thread, and to all those who are thinking about it?... just do it, its very easy to do! I've just taken 5 minutes to drill the holes so I could measure the depth.
I'll update after the weekend...
Last edited by LeeRobbo on Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by Proaudio » Fri Jan 08, 2016 7:29 am

I'm not convinced about endurance of your screws down to axle method. It is actually very small amount of play which is required to enable the noise.

Good thing with simple epoxy fix is, it can be done again. I have done this fix couple years ago, last spring I noticed small noise level increase and during summer season I did epoxy fix again and noise level went to normal. Between these fixes I'll assume at least 500h of use. I did make counter sunk hole and use black two component structural glue (3M DP490) which is so thick that it won't drip out of hole so I could glue all holes at one go. Open time for this glue is >90min, good stuff.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by LeeRobbo » Fri Jan 08, 2016 9:20 am

Proaudio wrote:I'm not convinced about endurance of your screws down to axle method. It is actually very small amount of play which is required to enable the noise.

Good thing with simple epoxy fix is, it can be done again. I have done this fix couple years ago, last spring I noticed small noise level increase and during summer season I did epoxy fix again and noise level went to normal. Between these fixes I'll assume at least 500h of use. I did make counter sunk hole and use black two component structural glue (3M DP490) which is so thick that it won't drip out of hole so I could glue all holes at one go. Open time for this glue is >90min, good stuff.
Hey buddy
The grub screws are effectively glued in-place by the film of epoxy, almost the same as tapping the hole. It will not be subjected to the same lateral shear. The 'epoxy only' plugs are still being subjected to the rotational forces and will eventually snap depending on the type of riding and power exerted. If you are a sprinter and/or mountain masher the shear forces on those pins is very high.
The steel pins will not bend, they will spread the load over the entire depth of the pin, increasing the effective surface area. The 'epoxy only' pins will bend, therefore the depth is irrelevant.
Of course, the type of epoxy will make a difference, a high tensile/shear epoxy would be better if the grub screw is not used.
It will also make a difference which trainer you have, a genius will allow you put more shear on those pins than any other.
If the pins are tapped into the surface plate then you could consider putting threadlock on the plate interface. The pins could then be unscrewed if you find any issues in future

It's also worth noting that the thin long setting epoxy will fill into a small gap under the plate taking away the slack that exacerbates the effect, If it's only a very thin gap then use superglue like others have to 'wick' into it, put the roller in a vertical plane and let gravity help it it wick from all six holes.. turn over and do the same for the other six.
All the best
Update:
All good, was really quite easy to do and here's a pic of the finished spindle... a few tiny bits of epoxy got under the tape and still need cleaning off.. Been using now for a week and totally like new! But time to sell as I have a new genius from the January sales :)
IMG_20160110_140209.jpg
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