The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

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datzen
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Post by datzen » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:47 pm

mcorn wrote: There is something weird somewhere. Without hearing it up close, it is very hard to get a sense where it is coming from. I would be hesitant to recommend disassembly unless you are mechanically inclined, as it might mess up your warranty. You could make sure that all of the Torx screws are tight, which is fairly low risk. Besides screws that hold the motor together, there are four on the bottom. Look for cracks in any the of plastic housing as well.

Unlike Kevin, I never found an easy way to remove the internal fan blade. I would love to know how to get it off the shaft without breaking it.
Cheers for the replies.

It is indeed new and covered by waranty but was ordered online so if there was a quick fix I would have preferred that rather than shipping parts back and forth.

Checked the screws and they all seem ok, so I've contacted the store and we'll see what happens.

Thanks again.

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Post by richos » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:52 pm

I have not looked at all the entries in this forum, so I don't know if it includes anything diverging from the "epoxy fix" that started it all. I have been posting on the "Help! Noisy motorbrake unit due to loose roller" forum (which I'll try to link to here - viewtopic.php?t=15746). And my latest entry goes includes this:
I am now wondering if the slippage I see is the same one described by the epoxy fix. When I push on the roller side to side, I create this "click", due to the entire roller slipping side to side, I would assume, certainly not the metal sleeve. There's just no room for the sleeve to move side to side, whereas the entire roller--or "drum" as I'll call it--is probably moving as much as a fraction of a millimeter.

I can see where if the metal sleeve comes loose, you have a big problem, but I wonder why the 12 holes filled with epoxy would no longer be adequate. I wonder how thick the metal sleeve is--maybe a millimeter? Since my tire comes nowhere close to it when in use, I wonder if I could sink some wood screws through the sleeve to anchor it in place. How thick is the urethane, is it a solid 1 cm or more thick in radius? I would assume it is, since the epoxy fix procedure talks about drilling in 10 mm. Why so deep--is the metal sleeve actually that thick????

Somehow the noise I hear is like that of a rusty, or dry drum turning on an axle that needs some grease, or new bearings. Not saying this is what's happening, or that this represents the construction of this motor brake, but it sure doesn't seem like the metal sleeve slipping is the problem.


I'm posting this here because I see a lot of entries on this forum, a lot of people dealing with the epoxy fix, and some of them having problems with it(?) I am waiting to do it myself, until I a) have a clearer understanding of precisely what to do, and b) am reasonably sure this is the fix to my problem--I am currently skeptical.

(One of these days I need to figure out how to make cross references in this forum...)
-Rich of Eagan, MN

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Post by richos » Fri Nov 25, 2011 4:55 pm

Meant to say
Since my tire comes nowhere close to the epoxy filled holes when in use, I wonder if I could sink some wood screws through the sleeve at the holes (or next to them) to anchor it in place.
instead of
Since my tire comes nowhere close to it when in use, I wonder if I could sink some wood screws through the sleeve to anchor it in place.
-Rich of Eagan, MN

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Post by richos » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:43 pm

After some further experiments and ride time, I've concluded that noise is coming from maybe three sources, the wheel, bearings, and possibly the metal sleeve. I've used the electrician tape "solution", and it may help some. I can flex my wheel/tire and get a certain amount of clicking noise, which adds to the racket when I'm using the trainer, but I can also distinguish this noise from another clicking/chirping noise, which someone else likened to the baseball card in the bike spoke thing we did as kids.

This clicking/chirping noise is due, I think, to the fact that I can rotate the roller with light hand pressure on it, and feel other than a smooth roll underneath, as though we're going from rut to rut.

I was able to order a T1941 motor brake, 110V, from Ochsner USA ($170)--they still have some in stock--so whether or not I come up with a fix for my current, 4-year old motor brake, I'll have a replacement that should last me another four years. I am told bearings do wear out, and I believe it.

My T1941 fits my old trainer. The newer version is the T1946, which, if I ordered it, I'd need the new power supply too.

I may also try the epoxy fix yet, but again, I would think the electrician tape would subdue that noise, and I still hear a lot of other noises. It's really bad on those descents...
-Rich of Eagan, MN

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Post by richos » Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:53 pm

I did finally apply the epoxy fix to my T1941 motor brake. Mine is a 110V, but of course it had the same problem, unrelated to voltage.

For anyone like me, only average at best in a shop setting, I'll provide the detail. I'll preface this with saying that I took the precaution of wearing surgical mask after my first session with the glue--coincidentally I had got pretty sick afterwards. My process went like this:
1. I removed the motor brake and set it on my work stand, then used some heavy duct tape at the sides of the rollers to not only hold the roller in place while I drilled, but to catch the debris.
2. Drilled out the holes (4 at a time) with a 5/32 inch drill bit, which is pretty much equivalent to the 4 mm bit I did not have. Vacuumed up the debris. I had tried a little countersinking on one hole, and decided it was too much work, so none of my other holes were countersunk.
3. Mixed some Super Epoxy (www.pcepoxy.com), "15 minute work time", which I'd bought because it had a supposed 4 hour set up time.
4. IMPORTANT: To avoid dripping glue on the roller as little as possible, I put duct tape as a mask over every exposed surface around the hole, leaving just a set of small squares with drilled holes exposed. For the first set of holes, I did NOT do this, so I had more of a mess to clean up (see step 6).
5. Let the glue for each set of holes set for several hours, then went on to the next
6. Applied the glue to the holes, pushing out air bubbles as I worked, using a toothpick. Left some glue above the hole. I noted that the glue had a tendency to come off of the toothpick with a sort of stretched out tail, which had a tendency to miss the hole, so to speak. So without my duct tape mask, it got on the roller.
7. After letting the glue set up overnight, I removed the duct tape, and smoothed off the excess glue from the roller using an electric drill with a 2 inch fine wire wheel brush attachment. Carefully done, this also worked well for areas of the roller where I'd spilled glue on.

The results have now been tested for over three hours total, so we'll see how it holds up. The awful racket I had, especially on descents, is all gone, and I'm left with tire noise--I just use old tires--and rear wheel noise--I am using an older rear wheel that "clicks", likely due to a loose hub, and so on. These noises I can live with until I get off my butt (literally) and deal with the rear wheel.
-Rich of Eagan, MN

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malfukt
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Post by malfukt » Sun Jan 08, 2012 3:58 pm

Sfelt wrote:
Well that settles it I will have to "DO THE FIX",
I am alone in that my tyre contacts almost on the right hand holes?
I keep looking at some daft mistake in set up I can only think my bike has a strange geometry......
i reversed the QR lever on mine & put the lever on drive side of bike, this centred the tyre with roller..

I also have now encountered dreaded roller noise & found that the metal sleeve (if you press hard enough) moves up&down on the urethane plugs, there is a small gap between the contact of the metal sleeve & roller as others have stated..maybe over a period of time the urethane shrinks with build of heat & then cooling down..

as since this noise started, it is definitely louder at the beginning of use & quietens after a couple of minutes as tyre/roller heat up..it is not as quite as new though still fairly noisy.

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i think if used long enough when at this stage, the plugs will eventually wear to the point of allowing metal sleeve to rotate around urethane roller
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Post by mcorn » Sun Jan 08, 2012 7:55 pm

Yes, Mal, the metal sleeve will get so loose it will wear away and cut into the plugs, at which point the sleeve may start spinning freely on the urethane (it happened to me). And like you, I found that a warm up will make it temporarily better during the ride, but eventually it will completely fail. Some folks have dribbled in superglue and reported a satisfactory result. By the time I got around to doing the fix, it was so loose that superglue was not enough to fill the gap.

I think some urethane formulations are worse than others. I'm not completely sure why Tacx took this approach as opposed to a solid metal spindle, which would have lasted forever. Perhaps the urethane is supposed to dampen vibration, although I['m not sure why. (CompuTrainer uses an all metal spindle and it is quiet.) In any event, the metal sleeve over a urethane roller seems to have become the standard on all Tacx VR trainers.

It wouldn't be that hard to get a solid metal sleeve to replace the urethane, except I have not figured a way to remove the black plastic fan blade on the inside without breaking it. So without, a source of replacement blades, I'm unable to make an all-metal roller, which I would like to try.

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Post by malfukt » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:02 pm

Yes Mike I have read all this topic & seen that you got to the point of completely loose sleeve..maybe it was also cost issue, urethane being cheaper than solid metal roller & machining costs..

have noticed in pic`s of genius it is also same design for roller..going to enjoy stripping that down when this happens..PDF anyone..how to strip down a genius :wink: :wink:
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Post by mcorn » Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:13 pm

Bushido and Imagic/Flow have the same urethane as well. I would actually think the urethane system is at least as expensive, if not more, to produce.

P.S. I have a 220 volt Fortius roller that I am fixing this weekend. It is about 2 to 3 years old, but with very little use. I was testing it back in the days of problems with version 1 110 volt units. I stopped using it when version 2 came out and because it stopped working correctly due to loose wires in the plug (I only later figured out that the loose wires was causing the problem). So, I fixed the wires (they were all loose) and was curious to try it out again. When I got on, it made a terrible noise, so it is being repaired.

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Post by Leakygas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:12 am

Hi,
Not really sure if I am on the right thread, but was looking around after at a club turbo session this week, one of th eother guys commented that he thought my bearings had gone and needed replacing. Its making a lot more noise than his unit.

Is there a check I can do for this? Tried reading ht epast few pages and I have seen a lot aout superglue/resin/drilling, but would rather confirm before I get into this.

I was rolling the roller by hand and it has a noticable siff point on it. Any suggestions what I can do? Thanks

Brett

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Post by mcorn » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:26 am

Not sure about the stiff point, but try rotating it with it unplugged from the power supply. While plugged in, it may have resistance. If it does not rotate freely when it is not plugged in, there may be something else going on.

I think bearing failures are actually quite infrequent and would likely happen only atter a very large number of hours. The loosening of the metal sleeve on the urethane roller actually produce a god-awful noise that makes you think there is something seriously wrong mechanically, but it is just racket caused by the sleeve moving under load. Some of it may also be noise created by air moving over the holes in the metal sleeve.

I've now done two of these fixes, the last one being last weekend. It was for a unit that had very low hours, but was at least a couple years old. The first unit was one that I actually replaced the bearings on, but bearing replacement did not help.

Take a careful look at the holes in the metal sleeve. If grey urethane does not fully fill the holes or the sleeve looks at all loose (it may not appear loose), I would try the epoxy fix. It is easy to do, but remove the unit from the trainer and do it on a bench. Use tape to keep epoxy from going everywhere and do about 4 holes at a time as you have to remove excess epoxy and rotate the spindle to the next 4. Let the epoxy set for 24 hours before use. Don't using 90 second epoxy as you will not have enough working time. I think a 15 minute set is about right.

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Post by Leakygas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 1:56 pm

Hi mcorn, thanks will take a look tonight. When I rolled it it was unplugged. The resistance seems in the same degree of travel on the roller. The noise is there, but its not prohibitve, but definately a lot louder than my club colleague's.

I bought the unit 2nd hand last year from someone who had used it to train for the Marmot using the DVD, so it probably had plenty of hours on it before I got it.

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Post by Leakygas » Thu Jan 12, 2012 10:49 pm

OK, so I've instepcted it and it looks fine, but the re is definately an area of rubbing/resistance when you turn the shaft. So I have stripped the motor down as far as I can. This is where I need some assistance.

I have got it so I have taken the roller and the fan and magnet out and then taken the magnet off the shaft. I can definately feel there is resistance when turning through a certain point. All fine and then its there.

How do I now strip it down further? This is where I have manged to get to

Image
IMAG0318 by Brett-GT40, on Flickr

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Post by Kevinm » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:05 pm

The fan is a tight push-fit on the shaft and is difficult to remove as the blades could be broken in the process.

If you remove the fan, there are three Torx screws retaining the bearing holder. The great difficulty is that the bearings are solidly glued (super-glued) onto the shaft. Unless you have a bearing puller that you can use in the limited space, they will be impossible to remove. In the process of removal you will probably destroy the bearings. They are a common size, although finding the higher quality version that is fitted may take a bit of searching.

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Post by mcorn » Thu Jan 12, 2012 11:40 pm

Kevinm wrote:The fan is a tight push-fit on the shaft and is difficult to remove as the blades could be broken in the process.

If you remove the fan, there are three Torx screws retaining the bearing holder. The great difficulty is that the bearings are solidly glued (super-glued) onto the shaft. Unless you have a bearing puller that you can use in the limited space, they will be impossible to remove. In the process of removal you will probably destroy the bearings. They are a common size, although finding the higher quality version that is fitted may take a bit of searching.
I will reinforce what Kevin has said. I have not found any way of removing the fan blade without breaking something, but I have replaced the two bearings on the end of the shaft. It is a common and inexpensive shielded bearing (not rubber seals), but you do have to destroy it to remove. You can either use a special bearing puller that requires you to drill out between the races or something like a Dremel with a cut-off blade to cut the bearing.

There is also an end-cap on the outboard end (left side of picture) behind which is a bearing. You remove the endcap with a flat screwdriver. It takes a little horsing around and you will probably chew up the plastic a bit, but it will come out.

The noise could also be caused by a small amount of material between the spindle and plastic. I have used a thin piece of sheet metal to push out debris.

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Post by Leakygas » Fri Jan 13, 2012 12:06 am

mcorn wrote:There is also an end-cap on the outboard end (left side of picture) behind which is a bearing. You remove the endcap with a flat screwdriver. It takes a little horsing around and you will probably chew up the plastic a bit, but it will come out.

The noise could also be caused by a small amount of material between the spindle and plastic. I have used a thin piece of sheet metal to push out debris.
Thanks mcorn. After what Kevin posted I tried the cap and managed to get it off - yes the plastic is chewed slightly.

Well, you were right, the noise and also the friction appear to be a LOT of material build up in between the roller and the housing that appeared to be also causing some lateral load on the spindle and causing the housing to rub slightly as well.

20 mins of cleaning it out and I don't think that I have ever heard the unit so quiet!!! I can not believe the amount of rubber that has just come out of the unit.

Thanks for you help guys and pointing in the right direction

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by brianm1962 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:40 pm

I, was a little sceptical about the Epoxy Fix. However, the noise of my Tacx Fortius had become unbearable and I was willing to try anything. I used an aluminium epoxy (JB-WELD) 'cause that's what I had available. I drilled the holes that are visible around the metal band, then used a toothpick to push the epoxy into the holes. I allowed it all to set for 24 hours. Wow! what a simple fix. Suddenly, my system is quiet again. I didn't realize how bad it had actually got. This totally worked for me, but wish I had protected the area with masking tape, first.

Thanks for the post!

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by scapaslow » Mon Apr 01, 2013 12:00 am

My Fortius developed a terrible noise quite suddenly in the middle of a ride the other day. I'd been aware of the urethane plugs through the 12 perforations gradually reducing over time and could see what looked like the remains of what had been left on the floor.
I'd been aware of this thread for ages and dreaded the day i'd have to do it. So out with the drill and the Araldite expoxy and following the instructions of previous posters i applied the fix. The epoxy i used "Araldite Precision" is workable for 2 hours and quite thick. I found it tricky forcing the glue into the holes but with the long set time it tended to settle and i could then add more.
2 test rides now and it is incredibly quiet - a low hum and some chain noise. What a difference! I think it's quieter than when new. I hope it lasts.
Many thanks to Techno and all the previous posters for their experiences.

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by Jim Melrose » Thu May 23, 2013 2:28 pm

I'd first looked at this thread about 18 months ago and had put off doing the job on my Multiplayer roller as my neighbouring house was empty and my trainer set up in the spare room by the adjoining wall. With the house now occupied I didn't want to be antisocial and did the work. Here's my experience and learning:

I'd read about both a 'superglue' and expoxy fix and planned to be ready for a combination of both. I didn't do much research or browsing for materials but was passing Homebase and from a pretty good selection I chose Unibond Repair Power Expoxy (metal), which said it would bond metal and plastic. From the superglue selection I chose one that was stated to be very fluid as I wanted it to move by capillary action.

1) Drilled out each hole with 4mm bit down to the core, all the gaps between the roller and frame sealed with masking tape to prevent debris getting where it shouldn't. The tape also holds the roller still while drilling.

2) Used 6.5mm bit to countersink the holes, keeping going until the edge of the hole was about 1mm from the edge of the steel sleeve. This was for aesthetic reasons and I hadn't reached the bottom of the sleeve by the time I stopped. I was surprised by the thickness of the sleeve as (for no logical reason) thought it was only a couple of mm thick.

3) After inspecting the interface between the steel and the plastic in the holes there was one that seemed to have a small gap so I started dripping superglue into the hole at that point. It was immediately drawn into the gap and before I knew it I'd used half the bottle of glue. At this point I turned the roller over and found glue coming out of one of the holes at the bottom and spreading over the surface of the sleeve. I had to keep wiping this off and turning the roller until it stabilised. The learning point here might be to drill one hole and then superglue but if there is only separation at one point this might not be discovered until all the holes are drilled out. Then you will just have to be careful. This reinforces the need to ensure you don't get drilling debris behind the roller as it would be bad news to superglue this into a solid mass. I should also have run a damp cloth round behind the roller before starting but didn't think of it at the time.

4) With the superglue bit done I taped the roller again to fix it, mixed up a small batch of expoxy and fed it into the first hole with the tip of a cocktail stick that I'd broken in half. If you use a little at a time, circling the hole to line it with epoxy and then fill it up it is possible to minimise air blocks down the hole. When it seemed to fill up too quick I pushed the blunt end of the stick in and this burst any air bubble. I did two holes and left it to set. You have to work quite fast with this stuff because it's only fluid for a 2-3 minutes.

5) The first hole I filled until it was just above the surface of the sleeve and subsequently found this was seizing on the casing when the roller was turned. It was still possible to force the roller round so it didn't stop the operation. In subsequent holes I either left it slightly convex or used a fresh cocktail stick to skim the surface flat when the expoxy was just getting stiff. It was possible to move to the next pair of holes after 15-20 minutes so all the gluing was done in a couple of hours.

6) I left it overnight and the next day taped up the roller again and used a coarse wet and dry (120 grit; I tried 240 but it didn't make much impression) to rub down the roller. This removed all the superglue and expoxy on the metal surface and smoothed the surface of the glued holes. After working round the roller, taping up each time to catch the debris, it was clean and bright and all the holes were neat. The roller would now turn without touching the frame.

7) I made a couple of other changes before using the trainer - Training wheel was not central on the roller (I'd used it like this for 3 years though), maybe 7-8 mm out, so I re-dished the wheel until it was spot on. I also recalibrated the brake, reducing the pressure on the roller to a reading of 0.4. It had been positive but I can't recall the value, maybe 2-3. I know this reduces the validity of the test by changing more than one variable but I wanted to optimise the whole system before use rather than risk wrecking the repair straight away.

Did a training session and the difference was dramatic. Tyre/roller noise hugely reduced. The recalibration meant I had to drop my intervals in Catalyst by just over 20W, which was slightly tedious, but not a big deal.

In summary, with preparation and a little care it's an easy fix and makes a really big difference. I'm a bit wary of Araldite as I've found it gets brittle with time. Although I would have used slow set Araldite if I'd chosen it the Unibond epoxy, despite going off pretty quick, seemed the best choice for the materials involved.

Hope this helps.

Jim

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Re: The noise from my Fortius Brake roller is caused by

Post by DAZZA1 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 6:46 pm

Well, almost 5 years on from doing this repair and the fix was still holding strong!

Sadly today with a loud whining noise and a burning electrical smell the roller came to a grinding halt and totally locked up..it won't budge.Checked all the electrical connections and they are all tight..I do believe this unit has just come to the end of its life.

I now face buying another motor unit knowing full well that some 5 years on after this design fault was found the dreaded urathane roller is STILL being used even on the flagship Genius model...what pure genius indeed!!

Now then,where did I put that drill and glue................

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